TL to justify a Jump 6

[PsiTraveller]

Jump Drive distance is dependent on 2 things. The percentage of the Jump Drive and Tech Level. Jump 1 is available at 9, Jump 2 at 11 and up to Jump 6 at TL 15.

So here is an odd question. A lower Tech computer can run higher tech software if there is enough bandwidth. So how far can you push that?
Assume a Tl 12 ship, Jump 3 max normally. Everything is Tl 12 built. The Core Computer is TL 9 Core with 40 Bandwidth.

That is enough computer bandwidth to run TL 15 Jump 6 Software. Could the TL 12 ship with really big Jump engines (15 percent of the hull) use the TL 15 software on the TL 9 Core Computer to make a Jump 6?

I am trying to figure out if low tech ships could be upgraded to handle the math/bandwidth and then make a longer Jump than normal. The size of the Jump Engine matters of course, you need 15% of Hull volume, but is software enough to justify a Jump 6?

 

[mancerbear]

As long as nothing contradicts the rules, I can't see why not.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So here is an odd question. A lower Tech computer can run higher tech software if there is enough bandwidth. So how far can you push that?

It's not enough to have TL15 software. The jump drives themselves cannot do more than Jump-3 at TL12.

As with manoeuvre drives, jump drives are also limited by TL, as shown on the table. You cannot select a jump drive with a higher TL than the shipyard that is building it. So, for example, a TL12 shipyard can only install jump drives that are a maximum of jump-3.

HG, p15.

 

[mancerbear]

But, there's nothing stopping you from taking that ship to a TL 15 yard and swapping out the J-3 drive for a J-6 drive

 

[Jeraa]

But, there's nothing stopping you from taking that ship to a TL 15 yard and swapping out the J-3 drive for a J-6 drive

True, but it would no longer be a TL 12 ship. Even if you don't consider it a TL 15 ship, it would still have TL 15 components and wouldn't truly be a TL 12 ship anymore.

 

[mancerbear]

No, it would still be a TL12 ship. All of it bar the J-Drive could be maintained at a TL12 shipyard. Only the drive would need a TL15 shipyard for maintenance.

 

[alex_greene]

No, it would still be a TL12 ship. All of it bar the J-Drive could be maintained at a TL12 shipyard. Only the drive would need a TL15 shipyard for maintenance.

I agree. This is the Ship of Theseus problem, otherwise known as the Cyberware Problem: at what point does a TL 12 ship cease to be TL 12? Is it when 25% of its components have been swapped out for higher TL components? 30%? 50%? 60%? 75%?

 

[mancerbear]

While it contradicts my earlier comment, you could say that the TL of a ship is the TL of its highest TL component, just to make it easier for all involved. Though that too opens a new can of worms in and of itself.

 

[Sigtrygg]

What you are doing here is sort of reinventing the letter drive paradigm of CT (and possibly MgT 1e though I never got an answer to the TL of the letter drives in MgT).

In CT LBB1-3 the jump rating at a TL was determined by the drive letter and the hull you put it in. You then needed a computer that could run the jump program of the jump.

E.g. a type C jump drive in a 100t ship could achieve jump 6 - in CT the type C drive was TL9. In 77 edition CT you could run the jump 6 program on any computer that has the space for it - since it used 2 slots in the CPU a model 1 computer could do it, and a model 1 computer could be built at TL5. The 81 revision changed the space needed for a jump 6 program and changed the rules to requiring a computer model at least equal to the jump rating - so you now needed a TL 12 computer.

Note that you would need drop tanks for the jump fuel - but in principle it could be done.

As with all things in the new HG - if you want to do it your way for your game do it and have fun.

 

[Condottiere]

Tech level thirteen prototype jump factor six drive.

If you follow that model, a jump factor six programme written at lower tech levels might be buggy and require an overlaid Steve Jobs to push the computer engineers.

 

[alex_greene]

A human could walk onto a TL 12 ship carrying a TL 14 hand computer. En route, the ship's computer goes BSOD and they have to use the hand computer to run the ship.

It still doesn't make the ship TL 14.

You could swap out the Jump drive for a TL 15 one at a TL 15 port, if you have the creds and can sort out the tonnage. But you'd have to get to at least a TL 14 port for annual maintenance, and the TL 15 port for repairs.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Nice catch about page 15 and the installation of Jump engines AnotherDilbert. I missed that line. Thanks!

So if we want to create a Space Station that can make a TL 15 Jump 6 ship how do we do it?

Space Station rules have Tl 10 machinery making Advanced Electronics. We could declare the module TL 15 and produce Advanced parts of X number of tons per day (triple production after TL13 don't forget!).
Or Advanced Machine Parts, I think an argument could be made for that as well.

Would that work?

On the ship design sheets we may have to include a TL of each component to make sure somebody does not think that can upgrade software and take a longer jump.

And the issue of having TL 15 Jump engines in a lower tech hull and what that means for maintenance still needs to be addressed. Once per year you need to get to a TL 15 shipyard for your maintenance it looks like to me (Core book page 145). The rest of the time it can be assumed you do the maintenance yourself and have the TL 15 spare parts that cost the 0.1%/12 amount that you need to spend.
That's the way it looks to me anyway, but I was wrong at the start of the thread so would love input.

Lol typed this at the same moment Alex was posting his, so we agree on the maintenance part.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's a setting thing in my opinion - despite what the rules say.

If your top of the range SUV blows a circuit board in the engine management system is the replacement manufactured locally? No, it is imported from the manufacturing plant in China.

A similar situation should exist with starship construction, repair and maintainace. A type A starport can build starships. It can repair them and conduct annual maintenance too. Data bases contain the sum total of TL15 knowledge, even if the local world is TL12 it knows about TL15 if it is part of the Imperium.

So you buy in high tech spares and parts from the higher tech worlds - that's why you have trade routes.

The Traveller Adventure hinges on the transport of IN meson guns for installation in hulls being constructed elsewhere. Why are they not locally manufactured, why do they need to be transported?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Space Station rules have Tl 10 machinery making Advanced Electronics. We could declare the module TL 15 and produce Advanced parts of X number of tons per day (triple production after TL13 don't forget!).
Or Advanced Machine Parts, I think an argument could be made for that as well.

Yes! For simplicity a generic TL12 world builds TL12 ships, meaning all components are TL12 even if they were introduced at an earlier TL.

In the same way a TL15 world builds TL15 space stations that can build TL15 ships.

Unless you really want to have a lower TL, a TL15 shipyard can build TL12 ships like the Free Trader for ease of maintenance.

On the ship design sheets we may have to include a TL of each component to make sure somebody does not think that can upgrade software and take a longer jump.

Normally all components are the same TL, so we only have to note the TL of the ship.

It's only the rare exception when we mix TLs, such as PC ships or scrounged Belter ships, where we have to note different TLs? And then we only have to note the few components that have a different TL.

Unless the referee states otherwise, it can be assumed that the Tech Level of the ship and its components will be the same as the shipyard in which it is being constructed. However, you may always install components of a lower Tech Level if you wish, perhaps in an effort to cut costs.

HG, p8.

 

[alex_greene]

Unless the referee states otherwise, it can be assumed that the Tech Level of the ship and its components will be the same as the shipyard in which it is being constructed. However, you may always install components of a lower Tech Level if you wish, perhaps in an effort to cut costs.

HG, p8.

That's not to say you can't swap out stuff later, or find that that TL 12 ship that you bought at government auction contains TL 15 parts, or have some alien come along and install something TL 16 as a reward for the Travellers' completing some adventure for him.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That's not to say you can't swap out stuff later, or find that that TL 12 ship that you bought at government auction contains TL 15 parts, or have some alien come along and install something TL 16 as a reward for the Travellers' completing some adventure for him.

Of course.

TCS even has rules for it:

Refitting Ships
Older ships with less advanced technology are often improved and brought in line with newer vessels by refitting them; out of date systems are removed with newer ones put in their place.

MgT1 TCS, p16

 

[alex_greene]

TCS even has rules for it:

Refitting Ships
Older ships with less advanced technology are often improved and brought in line with newer vessels by refitting them; out of date systems are removed with newer ones put in their place.

MgT1 TCS, p16

Chapter and verse. Saved me the trouble of having to dig for it myself. Thanks.

Of course, you do realise that a new High Guard must mean that there will have to be a new TCS at some point. I don't think anything's been written yet. Time to make those elevator pitches to Matthew, I think.

 

[Condottiere]

If only for the missile pack, though the principle rules would remain the same.

 

[phavoc]

For the most part ref's should discourage things like this because it's cherry picking in the rules. Could it occur? Undoubtedly. However you have to cobble together interfaces to various other systems instead of easily plugging them in, so I think if you get the good, you should also get the bad. Random failures of your power couplings, irregular surges, computer programs that drop a decimal place from time to time, etc. Lots of little things to make a PC's life hell for trying to mix too many different TL's on a ship.

 

[fusor]

For the most part ref's should discourage things like this because it's cherry picking in the rules. Could it occur? Undoubtedly. However you have to cobble together interfaces to various other systems instead of easily plugging them in, so I think if you get the good, you should also get the bad. Random failures of your power couplings, irregular surges, computer programs that drop a decimal place from time to time, etc. Lots of little things to make a PC's life hell for trying to mix too many different TL's on a ship.

Why? The 3I has a lot of standard ship designs that have been around for centuries. Why shouldn't they have standardised connectors and power couplers etc too? Imperial ships at least should be pretty modular, and could even be designed to take components from a range of TLs.