Those pesky Minbari

[Karlopopoli]

Right,

Minbari, Pinnacle of the younger races, best out there. But, does anyone else think they're a bit too hard now since SFOS came out and bumped them all up by a chunk. Am I the only one out there who thinks that maybe The Minbari Worship has gone a little too far considering how pants the actual harder races ahve turned out to be.

I'm a lot more worried about fighting the dear little boneheads than I am the Vorlons or even the shadows. if we're basing on the series and relative hardness then i understand that the Minbari are hard but then surely the Shadows and Vorlons would b even harder.

Opinions please.

 

[Chernobyl]

minbari - qualified that I have limited experience fighting them. it seems to me that you either can get some stealth and do OK but if you;'re having a bad dice day then you're toast.

Chern

 

[Obsidian]

Like Chernobyl said it really boils down to Stealth. If you beat the Stealth roll, they're in for a pounding.

One of the things that I think people are having a tough time getting their heads around is the use of Scouts in the game. If you're fighting the Minbari you need a Scout. Period. Failure to bring one against the Minbari is a HUGE tactical blunder and you deserve the beating you are going to get. Yes, I realize it is a little tough to cough up that Raid level point for an Oracle/Delphi instead of a Nova, but the trade off is worth it. Especially the Delphi.

The combination of the Scout trait plus the "Scanners to full!" action on fighters will give you a +2 on your rolls. You'll likely lose the fighter flight in the attack phase, but getting this bonus is worth the sacrifice.

 

[Nomad]

[rant]
As I understand it, the minbo's were given all that extra damage and crew because we humble earthlings can now try to pierce their stealth by sacrificing our fighters and using scouts.

The first flaw in this argument is that by turn two of any game set in the pre-Delphi-class era, any Oracles present will be rapidly expanding clouds of plasma.

Flaw #2 is that even if it all works and you drop one Sharlin's stealth to a poxy +4 at over 10" - all those fusion beams mean you are not going to get to within 10" - you hit him with all you've got - well, the half of it that makes the stealth roll... and damage him. A bit. Then he and his mates do the six - precise - double damage - beam thing.
Each.

Actually, it's the jump in beam firepower for the Sharlin (and the Centauri Primus) that narks me the most. These things get more AD than the Shadows! Anything smaller than an Omega needn't bother turning up.

Okay, that's pretty much what the Minbo's *did* do to the EA in 2248.
Is there anything to suggest that a decade of human ingenuity had not changed matters? The old Earth Force Sauce Book (sic) game stated that the EA had got better against stealth between the Battle of the Line and 2260. Toning down Minbo stealth after, say 2255 might make for a more interesting game. Right now I'm probably going to become a bonehead myself...reluctantly.[/rant].

Okay, okay, the Delphi *is* EA's response to minbo stealth...why ruin a good whinge?

 

[B5freak]

Having seen post-SFoS Minbari in action a couple times, I can say with all due confidence that Minbari are no longer as dependent on Stealth as once they were. With Hull 5 and lots of Damage/Crew, the Minbari can stand toe to toe with any fleet in the game completely without their Stealth. The one exception to that statement would be fighters. Nials need Stealth to compensate for their numbers.

Stealth is, however, the defining characteristic of the Minbari and the source of their main advantage, the thing that makes them such a horrid, brutal, ugly fleet to fight against.

As I've said before, I like the fluff, so I've no problem with this. I would however caution against the arguement that Scouts are the solution. Even with a Scout on the board, you have to roll a 4+ (assuming CQ of 4) to affect the Stealth, and then it's only a -1. With enough fighters on the board you have the potential of an additional -1, but that's only guaranteed if you get 4 of them within range for Scanners to Full.

For the cost of the Scout and the 4+ roll, I'd much rather see the target ship's Stealth disappear completely.

 

[Estalies]

see i thought that the scout would have gotten an ability to cancel one ships stealth, or at least drop it by 2, not just a pisspoor 1.

not that im complaining, being a sharlin junky and all...

 

[Pauly_D]

firstly i will start with things that can stop stealth and how they are easily neutralised by Minbari
1-Scouts-they are usually small ships with low Damage/Crew and weapons and get pushed over by anything the minbari have (or you could even just send over a few nials-just coz you could they could take out a scout that easily by themselves)
2-Fighters-MINIBEAMS point made, to get within distance to use the special action then minibeams get AF so that idea is out the window as well
3-EMINES-well this is your only real option, but it is neutralised by the fact that only 2 races have access to emines (last time i checked-SFOS draft II) So if you know you are up against Minbari then take Narns with 5 Dag'Kars (an almost unstoppable fleet against Minbari)

 

[Karlopopoli]

I'd be a bit happier if you could use some sort of triangulation rule so if one ship beats a target stealth then all other ships get a bonus representing targetting signals being sent across or something.

I'd also like scouts to simply drop the stealth off a target rather than reduce by 1. then all other ships could open up on the target your scout has lit up and vape irt. meanwhile the enhanced armoured and beamed up minbari can get on and blast the hell out of the scouts.

 

[Jhary]

After now several fights against Minbary Fleets

Shadows and Vorlons are Popcorn for the Minbarys.

there is only one race that has a weapon against Stealth thats stupid.

 

[Dralafi]

Well, as an avid Minbari player I'd have to say its nice to get some more damage and crew but definatly no more and I was only expecting alittle more NL for the sharlin, the 2 it had was kinda weak... Secondly, when doing the fighter lowering stealth thing, all you gotto do is sacrifice 1 flight ok, so it's a flight a turn but its still worth it. What really gets me is that people are so afraid of the minbari stealth its a bit unreasonable. At least you have a chance to get it down. Lets talk about the White Stars... They will always (statistically) shrug off 2/3 of the fire coming there direction and after that they half the damage taken. And that Rangers are the best so they all get an extre point of Crewquality? Yet NOBODY is complaining about this. That to me is a bit strange but what do I know? I'm just a powergaming Minbari, right?

Its just a game, thats the thing, and yes, the minbari is hard to beat, but far, very far from impossible. I have some serious fears in the coming tournament because I know exactly what will beat me (No, wont say until its done and over) and if just one person goes fairly close to that I'm done, thats game lost for me.

As for why I dont fear vorlons... Well, if they had weapons in all arcs then yes, I'd have serious problems and fear to come with that, but as it is, all you gotto do is go to any arc besides the front which is REALLY easy with fighters or Raid level minbari ships. "But Vorlon fighters have antifighter trait!" yeah yeah, but against the nial or fury or sentri or... Pretty much any fighter besides shadows and frazi its easy to beat in a dogfight. Shadows I fear alot more then vorlons, but thats because of the turreted weapon(s). I do believe they should have at least +2 to beat stealth, then they'd definatly be horrible against Minbari, but one also have to remember that goes against others scouts as well.

And the people saying scouts are too expensive to get. Whatever, the Centauri Covran is a Patrol level ship along with Abbai Shyarie and the Narn Sho'Kar is a skirmish Level Ship. So if you want cheap scouts change race. I suppose I could make a comment about why people dont want to give up the really hardcore EA but I wont since I already jumped on the ISA people... If one race doesnt do it for you when fighting minbari, change race. Or dont play against the Minbari when you have a choice.

I have a feeling that the Minbari will be the one race people will always be upset with and never enough balance etc. I'm glad to be upgunned thats for sure. I'm also glad to get more crew and damage but I dont think it was as necessary as the weapons. I can forgive low crew and damage as long as I got guns, or vice verse. Enough of my ranting though, just accept it for what it is and dont forget... It's just a game.

 

[Nomad]

Just did a quick excercise, 5 points at battle level, Minbari with two Sharlins and a Tinashi, late period EA with a Warlock, two Omegas and two Delphis. CQ 4 on all ships. Fighters were not included, except to assume EA had three flights in range to use "All Power to Sensors" against one Minbari ship per turn on turn two and later.

By the end of turn three, EA had lost the Warlock and had one of the Omegas crippled. They had acheived one lock-on, with the Warlock just after she was crippled on turn two, and dealt one of the Sharlins a shattering 15 damage and crew hits.

In the original version of ACtA, Mongoose apparently assumed that giving beam weapons a few attack dice with lots of bonuses (Super AP, Double Damage) would make them devastating weapons. It didn't, and the number of AD has had to be increased in SFoS. I think a similar error has been made with the Scout and fighters vs Stealth issue here - the benefits are too marginal to acheive the result desired, and the net effect of the changes has been to make the Minbari severely overpowered.

Has anyone won a game against the Minbari with EA or Narns under SFoS ?

 

[Mr Evil]

the membari big weakness is the Torotha, it realy hampers getting a proper list together. the ship is just pants.

realy need a decent skirmish level ship in the membari list !!!

trick is against the membari to get close and personal and concentrate on one ship, a few solid hits and its going down fast, if your scared of them and think your gonna loose, just go all guts and glory and run at them full pelt,, this will scare the membari as they whant to keep a good distance, and it will throw their tactics.

this is of course from my very limited exsperiance.

 

[H]

Well, from a Narn players perspective, i wouldn't count on E-Mines anymore. you would have to dump so many onto a sharlin to do anything it would be almost impossible. The lack of Crit ability makes us as impotent as any other race when It comes to fighting Sharlins, or indeed most minbo's. I saw someone say take A load of Dag Kars.. pre SFOS I would have said fine, but not now. it woould take just too many turns to slowly rack up the crew and dmg, during which time, said dag kar's would become extra space debris on the campaign map. If E-mines had lost the slow loading trait to compensate for the crit removal, maybe, just maybe it would have been possible, but I still doubt it. I'll arange a game against my minbo playing megolamaniac, but i rate my chances very lowly.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Has anyone won a game against the Minbari with EA or Narns under SFoS ?

I have

Seriously, we intended the Minbari to be a tactical problem but the next issue of S&P will have some anti-Bonehead tactics, including a few that have not been mentioned here yet. So, you have about 3 weeks of getting your butt handed to you by the Minbari until you have some new tactics to try out

Incidentally, another thread mentioned the possibility of just firing into an area of space to try to blat Minbari stealthed ships - interesting, as the very first draft of CTA had something very like that. We'll see how things go over the next couple of months but if the majority opinion swings that way, we might re-introduce those rules.

On the other hand, I am dead set against erodi9ng the Minbari's Stealth as that is their 'thing'. . .

 

[Mr Evil]

hey MSprange

the torotha seems pretty pants, reading its description in the minatures section wondered about maybe the torotha should get a dodge save ? evan a dodge of 6 or 5+ would actuly probably see these vesels getting used but not over power them ? as it doese describe them as being nearly as manouvaerable as the white star ?

 

[Pauly_D]

Well, as an avid Minbari player I'd have to say its nice to get some more damage and crew but definatly no more and I was only expecting alittle more NL for the sharlin, the 2 it had was kinda weak... Secondly, when doing the fighter lowering stealth thing, all you gotto do is sacrifice 1 flight ok, so it's a flight a turn but its still worth it. What really gets me is that people are so afraid of the minbari stealth its a bit unreasonable. At least you have a chance to get it down. Lets talk about the White Stars... They will always (statistically) shrug off 2/3 of the fire coming there direction and after that they half the damage taken. And that Rangers are the best so they all get an extre point of Crewquality? Yet NOBODY is complaining about this. That to me is a bit strange but what do I know? I'm just a powergaming Minbari, right?

calm down
no-one is accusing you of being a powergaming Minbari

firstly-You dont have to "just sacrifice 1 fighter" as it isnt an automatic success the more fighters you put in the better the chance of reducing stealth
also ok yeah i see your point about White Stars but that is 2/3 of hits whereas with the Minbari its all or nothing (and the majority of the time it is nothing) and i havent lost to ISA yet either (possibly because i always play against LBH but...)

and yes there are ways to beat Minbari (i do have a plan, it is still untried) but the point is that it is SO much harder to defeat minbari than any other fleet

ok Centauri scouts are really cheap but its ONLY a -1 to stealth and they get kicked over in about 2 mins on the battlefield

On the other hand, I am dead set against eroding the Minbari's Stealth as that is their 'thing'. . .

thats not what i meant either
just for a few of the bigger ships to have stealth reduced by 1 (as Stealth 5+ means that 1 in 3 ships will hit whereas with 4+, 1 in 2 will hit)

 

[MongooseMatt]

the torotha seems pretty pants, reading its description in the minatures section wondered about maybe the torotha should get a dodge save ? evan a dodge of 6 or 5+ would actuly probably see these vesels getting used but not over power them ? as it doese describe them as being nearly as manouvaerable as the white star ?

No, I think the Torotha is good as it is

It has very nice weapons up front - and the agility and speed to put them in position. Carefully used, it is a devastating ship - just don't let it get caught out in the open. . .

 

[Tal Hawkins]

Has anyone won a game against the Minbari with EA or Narns under SFoS ?

I have

Seriously, we intended the Minbari to be a tactical problem but the next issue of S&P will have some anti-Bonehead tactics, including a few that have not been mentioned here yet. So, you have about 3 weeks of getting your butt handed to you by the Minbari until you have some new tactics to try out

Incidentally, another thread mentioned the possibility of just firing into an area of space to try to blat Minbari stealthed ships - interesting, as the very first draft of CTA had something very like that. We'll see how things go over the next couple of months but if the majority opinion swings that way, we might re-introduce those rules.

On the other hand, I am dead set against erodi9ng the Minbari's Stealth as that is their 'thing'. . .

The Minbari are supposed to be a tactical problem?

We have 3 weeks of getting mauled before you put out some anti-minbari tactics?

When did this stop being a table top game and become a RPG. What you have just described is the typical DM only force.

But that is not what I came to see this game to be. This game is about 8 different forces all equal in power in the game with a variety of abilities so that each person can chose a favorite.

Yet you straight out admitted that the game is slewed in favor of the Minbari. You have sold a game that was supposed to be about equal chances to win with tactics being the deciding factor and turned it into a rock paper sissors game where the only thing that kind of trumps Minbari is Narn with E-Mines in large numbers.


I also have to ask if Mongoose is so bent on flavor and feel of Bab5 and uses this as the excuse for making the boneheads the uber wanking choice then why the virtual rape of the Vorlons and Shadows?

 

[WhiteRhino]

Hi;

I was one of the fortunate players that picked up SFOS at GenCon. In my initial posts about the book following the convention I stated that I though the Minbari had been beefed up far to much. Since that time I have played 7 games (5 raid, 2 battle) against them using various other (Centari, Narn x2, Earth x2, Shadows and Vorlon) fleets. In all cases the minbari were run by fairly inexperienced players while I ran the opposing fleets. Despite better knowledge of the rules and maneuvering, I haven't had anything even approaching a close game and the Minbari have managed to wipe out the opposing fleets without even loosing a single ship on two occasions.

I don't believe that Stealth is the biggest problem. I have used Scouts and Fighters to get around it, but Scouts tend to die fast and no fighter can stand up to a nial (especially since you're generally moving first) in a dog fight. The real problem is that they got harder to hit and can sustain more damage. I've rarely managed to take down anything bigger than a Torotha which is the only ship in their list that I feel is balanced.

I feel sorry for the Minbari players out there. Nobody is gonna want to play against them for long and they'll likely be labled as power gamers, which is unfortunate as they have one of the most visually stunning fleets.

Happy Gaming;

WhiteRhino

 

[Tal Hawkins]

Hi;

I was one of the fortunate players that picked up SFOS at GenCon. In my initial posts about the book following the convention I stated that I though the Minbari had been beefed up far to much. Since that time I have played 7 games (5 raid, 2 battle) against them using various other (Centari, Narn x2, Earth x2, Shadows and Vorlon) fleets. In all cases the minbari were run by fairly inexperienced players while I ran the opposing fleets. Despite better knowledge of the rules and maneuvering, I haven't had anything even approaching a close game and the Minbari have managed to wipe out the opposing fleets without even loosing a single ship on two occasions.

I don't believe that Stealth is the biggest problem. I have used Scouts and Fighters to get around it, but Scouts tend to die fast and no fighter can stand up to a nial (especially since you're generally moving first) in a dog fight. The real problem is that they got harder to hit and can sustain more damage. I've rarely managed to take down anything bigger than a Torotha which is the only ship in their list that I feel is balanced.

I feel sorry for the Minbari players out there. Nobody is gonna want to play against them for long and they'll likely be labled as power gamers, which is unfortunate as they have one of the most visually stunning fleets.

Happy Gaming;

WhiteRhino

So the old explanation that Minbari were invisible eggshells is now gone. They are invisible tanks.

Gee incredible balance there. :roll: