Those pesky Minbari
- Thread starter Karlopopoli
- Start date
No. There aren't going to be any rule changes. This is what Matt actually said
So there is obviously a few things that we as a group can already do, but simply aren't seeing. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 ways of dealing with Stealth.
1. Scouts
2. "Scanners to full!" (probably backed up by a fleet carrier for fighter recovery)
3. Closing the range to less than 10"
Can anyone come up afew other possibilities?
Tal Hawkins
Mongoose
Obsidian said:
Sorry about that I meant to type tactics not rules. Made the correction.
1. Scouts are easily killed so other players are required to relatively fragile ships while the Minbari player gets to pick nothing but warships.
2. Works great with Nials running around and Minbari packing nothing but Mini-beams. Also the fleet carrier rules requires the carrier to be within 30". Also if the fighter was within 4" (required for your scanner action) then it gets a -1 to the roll to recover which means on average only 1 fighter in 6 will recover.
3. Requires you to focus on fleets dedicated to close in action. Ships with missile launchers or focused on long range weapons like heavy beams often dont want to close. Missle ships in particular since EA missle ships are the just about the only ships that can actually outrange Minbari weapons.
Here try this for fun. Compare a Warlock to a Sharlin.
Hull - Warlock has 6. Sharlin has 5. Advantage Warlock
Damage - Sharlin 60/8 vs Warlock 70/18. So Warlock will last longer but both get crippled at same total.
Crew - Sharlin 66/9 vs Warlock80/20. More crew for Warlock but Sharlin has Flight Computer so advantage is more limited. Sharlin only slows down at 66 crew loss while Warlock loses abilities at 52 crew loss.
Speed - Both are equal speed and agility.
Special Abilities - Sharlin has advanced jump, Flight comp, and stealth. Warlock has Jump, command, and Interceptor. Advantage Sharlin since Interceptors are useless since all Sharlin weapons are beam or mini-beam.
Crafts - 4 starfury vs 4 Nial and 1 Flyer. Major advantage Minbari. More ships, all have stealth, and mini-beams will eat up EA fighters for lunch.
Now the weapons. This could take a long time so I am going to be a bit general and break them down by throw weight at range assuming both are going head to head with each other.
30" - Warlock has 6AD of missiles with all the good and bad of those. Sharlin has 6AD of beam. Advantage Sharlin. Missiles are slow loading and will miss alot from stealth.
20" - Warlock adds 4AD forward and 4AD boresight. Sharlin adds 8AD but at 18" so at 20" Warlock has throw weight advantage. This si a small range that the Warlock has to stay in and its outside the 10" where the Sharlins stealth is at normal.
10" - Warlock adds 10AD of pulse lasers. Now the Warlock can throw a total of either as much as 24 atack dice when boresighted and missiles loaded or as little as 16 AD when missiles are loading and target is only forward arc. In responce the Sharlin can always reply with 14AD.
So look at the battle as the ships close the Sharlin constantly fires its neutron laser which is Super AP and will hit each round on average with 2 AD of damage that is double damage and precise.
The Warlock will scramble to close and reply with its missiles and bore sight. But since the Minari will have initiative more often then not the boresight will probably only line up 1 out of every 3 rounds. To even fire though both weapons will require a 6 to even lock on and then in that 1 round in 6 will then connect on a 3 or better. So about once ever 6 rounds at range the Warlock will AT BEST hit with 5 AD I am assuming of course that the whole fight allows for boresight firing and that the stealth lock on and missles are firing not reloading . In those 6 rounds the Sharlin will have hit for an accumulated 12 AD and odds are before the Warlock even gets a single hit it will have to deal with 1 or more possible crits.
How can anyone consider this a fair fight? Two warships should be a coin flip. But there is no flip here. It is all the way Sharlin. With just one or two bad rolls and some decent flying by the Sharlin to stay out of arc she could destroy the Warlock and not take a single point of damage in the process. Just by staying out of boresight means a Sharlin will only be hit by a Warlock 1 round in 12 since the missiles are slow loading.
Pauly_D
Mongoose
Obsidian said:
yeah but the point is that Scouts are very weak and die quickly and only give a -1 to stealth
Scanners to Full is suicide but might help against 1 ship for 2 turns before all your fighters and Minibeamed to oblivian or Dogfighted to death by Nials (or even worse Tishats)
and within 10" is where most of the Minbari weapons are
aside from taking every lucky charm you have or hope for a lot of 6's for stealth roles thats almost it
tamcoan
Mongoose
Here's a few things I find useful against them:
1) Outnumber. Most minbari fleets are made up of a few large hulls and a small support fleet. It's important that you out-number them. You don't want to go extreme, IE: all patrol choices, but buy down 1-2 points from the battle level. If you have the minbari outnumberd 2:1 or 2:1, he can't take out your entire fleet before you're close enough. Plus more hulls gives you more chances to roll against stealth.
2) Split fire wherever possible. While it's usually a sound choice to concentrate on one ship until it's destroyed, minbari break that rule. If you can fire three weapon systems on three different minbari ships, choose to fire at ALL THREE. That gives you 3 different stealth rolls for each of your hull. Averages dictate that you should get at-least one successful stealth roll.
3) Dual flank attacks if possible. Most minbari have hard hitting forward guns with very little on the sides. Your best bet is to attack on both flanks and force the minbari player to turn one way or the other. Pretty much the best positioning for that is just slightly off the forward arc on both flanks. That way he can’t do a 90-degree turn and get both his forward and aft arcs in play.
4) Take note before the game of how many points he/she leaves in hyperspace. If you know you’re going to get a jump-point on top of you first thing, deploy accordingly and try to get a few ships in the back of your line to harass the jumping ship after it comes in.
1) Outnumber. Most minbari fleets are made up of a few large hulls and a small support fleet. It's important that you out-number them. You don't want to go extreme, IE: all patrol choices, but buy down 1-2 points from the battle level. If you have the minbari outnumberd 2:1 or 2:1, he can't take out your entire fleet before you're close enough. Plus more hulls gives you more chances to roll against stealth.
2) Split fire wherever possible. While it's usually a sound choice to concentrate on one ship until it's destroyed, minbari break that rule. If you can fire three weapon systems on three different minbari ships, choose to fire at ALL THREE. That gives you 3 different stealth rolls for each of your hull. Averages dictate that you should get at-least one successful stealth roll.
3) Dual flank attacks if possible. Most minbari have hard hitting forward guns with very little on the sides. Your best bet is to attack on both flanks and force the minbari player to turn one way or the other. Pretty much the best positioning for that is just slightly off the forward arc on both flanks. That way he can’t do a 90-degree turn and get both his forward and aft arcs in play.
4) Take note before the game of how many points he/she leaves in hyperspace. If you know you’re going to get a jump-point on top of you first thing, deploy accordingly and try to get a few ships in the back of your line to harass the jumping ship after it comes in.
Funny how people completely missed the point of my post... According to Matt there are numerous strategies that can be employed to defeat the Minbari. Some of them have been discussed in this thread, some haven't. Yes, I know the limitations of the ones I mentioned. Scouts are weak, fighters die easily and closing with Minbari puts you in range of more of their guns.
What I'm asking people to do here is consider other ways to deal with the problem that aren't so obvious :!:
For example, it was pretty common knowledge a while back that a great way to deal with Stealth was to split your fire between as many targets as possible. You have to roll against each target so you get a chance to beat the Stealth on each one making it less of an "all or nothing" proposition.
Another possibility that I don't think people have considered is the horde approach. We know the Minbari suffer from a lack of lower PL ships and that the temptation to take a Sharlin at all costs is very high. In a 5 point Battle scenario you're likely to see 2 Sharlins and 1 Morshin whereas the oppossing fleet could have 15 - 20 ships if they stuck to Skirmish and Patrol Level. Yes, these lower level ships will suffer greatly but remember the inherent flaw with beams. They can't split AD if the targets are more than 4" apart. Keep a little distance between your ships and they will be forced to focus on one ship at a time.
Come on people, stop whining and start thinking.
EDIT
Looks like Tamcoan and I cross posted with the same ideas. Totally agree with your suggestions and hadn;t even considered the flanking maneuvers.
What I'm asking people to do here is consider other ways to deal with the problem that aren't so obvious :!:
For example, it was pretty common knowledge a while back that a great way to deal with Stealth was to split your fire between as many targets as possible. You have to roll against each target so you get a chance to beat the Stealth on each one making it less of an "all or nothing" proposition.
Another possibility that I don't think people have considered is the horde approach. We know the Minbari suffer from a lack of lower PL ships and that the temptation to take a Sharlin at all costs is very high. In a 5 point Battle scenario you're likely to see 2 Sharlins and 1 Morshin whereas the oppossing fleet could have 15 - 20 ships if they stuck to Skirmish and Patrol Level. Yes, these lower level ships will suffer greatly but remember the inherent flaw with beams. They can't split AD if the targets are more than 4" apart. Keep a little distance between your ships and they will be forced to focus on one ship at a time.
Come on people, stop whining and start thinking.
EDIT
Looks like Tamcoan and I cross posted with the same ideas. Totally agree with your suggestions and hadn;t even considered the flanking maneuvers.
Scimitar
Mongoose
Centauri tricks against Minbari:
1) Use Corvans, not Vorcharr. Anyone else Vorcharr are better deal but Corvans give you multiple scouts with only slightly less survivability. At the very least, the Minbari will have more priority targets to shoot while heavier ships close in.
2) Use Razik/Rutarian mix. Raziks can fight Nials even up and close to that with Tashkats. Rutarians are tough and have stealth to sit close to Minbari warships. Again, diverts more Minbari resources.
3) :twisted: In larger battles hold 4-6 Vorchans in hyper. Sure they don't have AJP, but somebdy will come out close to where you want them. Even ones who aren't in a great position should be reasonably close and able to get into firing range in a turn. See how they like getting jumped on! :twisted: EA could even use this with throw-away Hermes.
4) Swarm, swarm, swarm. They're tougher than before and you're a little weaker at Sjirmish, but still get numbers and get in close.
Good hunting!
1) Use Corvans, not Vorcharr. Anyone else Vorcharr are better deal but Corvans give you multiple scouts with only slightly less survivability. At the very least, the Minbari will have more priority targets to shoot while heavier ships close in.
2) Use Razik/Rutarian mix. Raziks can fight Nials even up and close to that with Tashkats. Rutarians are tough and have stealth to sit close to Minbari warships. Again, diverts more Minbari resources.
3) :twisted: In larger battles hold 4-6 Vorchans in hyper. Sure they don't have AJP, but somebdy will come out close to where you want them. Even ones who aren't in a great position should be reasonably close and able to get into firing range in a turn. See how they like getting jumped on! :twisted: EA could even use this with throw-away Hermes.
4) Swarm, swarm, swarm. They're tougher than before and you're a little weaker at Sjirmish, but still get numbers and get in close.
Good hunting!
Small point, but you've got a 50% chance to lose those flight computers when you get crippled. Also, doesn't the Warlock have AJP?
and I must have been thinking incorrectly about how stealth works -
example. I fire 2 weapon systems at a ship with stealth. If I fire with the first system, and fail the stealth check, does the second system get a chance to lock on? or does it not even get to make an attempt?
if I succeed with the first stealth check, is the second assumed to see it also, or does it need a stealth check as well?
I was under the impression that the stealth check was for one ship to target another in whole, not in part - so to speak.
In either case, yes stealth is a tough nut to crack. I'd favor pulse (twin linked if possible) weapons against a minbari fleet as if you can get past the stealth you don't have interceptors to contend with.
Chernobyl
and I must have been thinking incorrectly about how stealth works -
example. I fire 2 weapon systems at a ship with stealth. If I fire with the first system, and fail the stealth check, does the second system get a chance to lock on? or does it not even get to make an attempt?
if I succeed with the first stealth check, is the second assumed to see it also, or does it need a stealth check as well?
I was under the impression that the stealth check was for one ship to target another in whole, not in part - so to speak.
In either case, yes stealth is a tough nut to crack. I'd favor pulse (twin linked if possible) weapons against a minbari fleet as if you can get past the stealth you don't have interceptors to contend with.
Chernobyl
Your thinking is correct. Stealth checks are done per declared attack not per weapon system.
Lets take the example of an Omega firing its forward weapons at various targets.
Scenario 1 (1 Target)
The Omega declares that its Heavy Laser Cannon and Heavy Pulse Cannon are firing on a single ship with Stealth. A single roll is made. If it fails, the attack is a complete waste. If it succeeds you roll your attack dice as normal.
Scenario 2 (2 Targets)
The Omega declares that its Heavy Laser cannon is firing on Target 1 while the Heavy Pulse Cannon is firing on Target 2. A Stealth roll is made on Target 1. If it succeeds, roll the AD for the Heavy Laser Cannon against Target 1. A stealth roll is then made agaisnt Target 2. If it succeeds, roll the AD for the Heavy Pulse Cannon against Target 2.
Scenario 3 (3 Targets)
The Omega declares that its Heavy Laser cannon is firing on Target 1 while the Heavy Pulse Cannon is firing 5 AD on Target 2 and 5 AD on Target 3. A Stealth roll is made on Target 1. If it succeeds, roll the AD for the Heavy Laser Cannon against Target 1. A stealth roll is then made agaisnt Target 2. If it succeeds, roll 5 AD from the Heavy Pulse Cannon against Target 2. Finally, a stealth roll is made agaisnt Target 3. If it succeeds, roll 5 AD from the Heavy Pulse Cannon against Target 3.
In essence the trick here is to learn to dole out your shots. You run a very high risk of a complete miss by concentrating on a single target. By splitting your attack dice over multiple targets you increase the odds that one of those attacks is going to get through. Any attack that gets through has the possibility of causing a critical hit and making life miserable on board the other ship.
Karlopopoli
Mongoose
I have npo objection to the Minbari being a hard race to over come in battles I really don't but why the Minbari. yes I know they were well hard but i was always under the impression that the Shadows were the masters of war closely followed by the Vorlons, then the Minbos topped the rest of them, But as it Stands Minbari will wipe the floor with Vorlons, I also suspect they'll paste the shadows too.
I liked how it was with the eggshell effect, beat the stealth and they get pasted but now, you have to regularly beat the stealth in order to get enough hits in to take them out.
I know a lot of Minbari players have complained that due to luck the stealth ends up taking very little effect in a game. Statistically it's a massive bonus you can't account for luck. I'd say either lower the bonuses they get or Do something about Stealth, Now I know no ruls are going to get changed as the shiny new supplement has only just come out but, i can hope.
Scouts aren't really much of a bonus any Minbari Player with any sense will take a look at the table and find the enemy scout and use one of those Lovely arc firing Neutron lasers to reduce it to a molten pile of space slag.
I'd like to see a few more options to counter. Some things along the lines of; Starburst emines - cause a pulse of Emp that lights up a target area giving all ships a +1 to beat stealth ships in that area if a successful hit is scored. Tracking Missile - gives a traget lock on a ship that it hits causing a -1 stealth to it. Things along those lines, admittedly i haven't thought of a lot, Yet.
Now someone mentioned White stars earlyier on. I don't see them as a massively over balanced ship especially for a raid choice, weapons aren't too powerful, very low damage points and average hull means you can easily score a lot of hits on them, Dodge is a big bonus with the adaptive armour but it doesn't make that big a deal really, if you pit a nova against a white star, i'd place money on the Nova anytime same with a hyperion or most of the Drazi ships. so whitestars aren't an issue at all.
I liked how it was with the eggshell effect, beat the stealth and they get pasted but now, you have to regularly beat the stealth in order to get enough hits in to take them out.
I know a lot of Minbari players have complained that due to luck the stealth ends up taking very little effect in a game. Statistically it's a massive bonus you can't account for luck. I'd say either lower the bonuses they get or Do something about Stealth, Now I know no ruls are going to get changed as the shiny new supplement has only just come out but, i can hope.
Scouts aren't really much of a bonus any Minbari Player with any sense will take a look at the table and find the enemy scout and use one of those Lovely arc firing Neutron lasers to reduce it to a molten pile of space slag.
I'd like to see a few more options to counter. Some things along the lines of; Starburst emines - cause a pulse of Emp that lights up a target area giving all ships a +1 to beat stealth ships in that area if a successful hit is scored. Tracking Missile - gives a traget lock on a ship that it hits causing a -1 stealth to it. Things along those lines, admittedly i haven't thought of a lot, Yet.
Now someone mentioned White stars earlyier on. I don't see them as a massively over balanced ship especially for a raid choice, weapons aren't too powerful, very low damage points and average hull means you can easily score a lot of hits on them, Dodge is a big bonus with the adaptive armour but it doesn't make that big a deal really, if you pit a nova against a white star, i'd place money on the Nova anytime same with a hyperion or most of the Drazi ships. so whitestars aren't an issue at all.
This is why the Delphi is so valuable. You don't need to be within 24" to reduce Stealth. You also have Stealth 5+ so the Minbari are going to have just as hard a time targeting the Delphi as you do targeting their Sharlins. Go hide in the corner for as long as possible.
One thing that I don't like about the scout trait is that you can't Scout and perform a special action in the same turn. Being able to Close Blast Doors would greatly increase the survivability of these ships.
I wasnt upset at all when i posted earlier so dont worry :wink:
Has anybody thought about the scouts having stealth as well? I mean, its not like the minbari will have a picknic taking down the enemy scouts because more often then not the scout has between 4 and 5+ stealth roll and the Delphi sports a stealth EQUAL to the Sharlin. Just more food for thought :wink:
Has anybody thought about the scouts having stealth as well? I mean, its not like the minbari will have a picknic taking down the enemy scouts because more often then not the scout has between 4 and 5+ stealth roll and the Delphi sports a stealth EQUAL to the Sharlin. Just more food for thought :wink:
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Erm, I was always under the impression that stealth was per attack as is the case with adaptive armour and that an attack was 1 weapon system. I did in fact check this with the Mongoose people last gencon (not sure exactly who though).
Frankly if this is NOT the case and it is just a case of 1 roll for each target then that is HUGELY overpowered in my oppinion. Unless I hear otherwise in an official ruling I will continue to roll stealth per weopon system firing.
Frankly if this is NOT the case and it is just a case of 1 roll for each target then that is HUGELY overpowered in my oppinion. Unless I hear otherwise in an official ruling I will continue to roll stealth per weopon system firing.
Karlopopoli
Mongoose
Dralafi said:
I get that scouts are handy, but only being able to reduce the stealth of one ship at a time is a bit useless.
I'll use EA as an example as you used the delphi. In a battle the EA would use the scout traitto try and dfrop the stealth of the minbari Leshaths before they dropped it, the Leshaths would drop the stealth of the Delphi and then the fightwould ensue over who gets to pound the hell out of the other sides scout first, meanwhile other spare shots form the minbari would be pasting Earth vessels left and right. then Minbari support would Jump in and open up.
I'm failry biased on this one as play EA and have a real hatred of the Minbari for being just a little bit too hard for my liking, I'd like to see damage points dropped down a bit on the Minbos.
most fights against them will have a turn of minbari blasting your scout to pieces then back the norm of not being able to hit a thing until you are all dead.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
tamcoan said:
That is how I originally read it and was slightly suspicious as it seemed overpowered so I made a point of seeking out the mongoose poeple at GenCon 2004 (who WROTE said rule) and asked them to their faces and was told that stealth is rolled per weapon system.
As I said earlier until I get an OFFICIAL oppinion to the contrary I intend to use it as such.
I'm amazed so many people have had this conversation and i cant recall seing mention of "maneuver to shield them" one. given the low number of mimbari ships, this should be fairly easy. so, it may mean loosing a patrol level ship a turn. more than worth it against the boneheads
I don't think you're reading the rule correctly. It says that so long as the Scout is within 24" of a ship with the Stealth trait, it may make a crew quality check at the start of the attack phase. If it rolls an 8 or more, the target ship will have its Stealth score reduced by one for the remainder of the turn.
I read this to mean that the scout will roll against ANY and ALL ships within 24". Not just a single ship. If that were the case then yeah, it'd be next to useless.
