The Virus

[swordtart]

This still means that there is no reason to ever Harden an M-Drive. Even Hardened ships aren't designed to lose 100% of their power. Since you can allocate power to it after the Ion Attack, it will always be powered even if not Hardened. The only except to this would be if the Ion Attack removed 100% of your power every round.

The only specific examples of Hardened systems are the Bridge (when you take the Radiation Shielding hull option) and the /fib computer option.

You could Harden an M-Drive (as it meets the criteria for Hardening), it doesn't say you should.

There are times a hardened M-Drive might definitely be useful if you were surprised, if the enemy Ion weapon got a 6+ or if you just wanted a huge reserve of power to reallocate to non-hardened systems where the power loss extended beyond the current Action phase for example.

Even small Ion Weapons stand a pretty good chance of completely depleting non-hardened ships. A small bay Ion cannon* depletes on average 120 power per hit. Most non-military ships in the CRB cannot even generate that level of power and even the military ships do not generate that much SURPLUS power. The M-Drive requirement of high thrust ships is often the majority of their power budget. You find 20 power to operate your life support, but finding 60+ to power your M-drive is a big ask.

If Ion Damage carries over to the next round it is taken off the power generated that round before any of it is allocated (it simply isn't available). It doesn't matter then if you generate 90 new power this turn if the you are reapplying 120 points of depletion as soon as it is generated. If the pathway to the system isn't hardened then it still goes down the drain. You could divert power from a hardened system to another hardened system in extremis.

I think dogfighting uses a different turn sequence and so there might be very different implications. I don't tend to use them.

Personally Hardened batteries look on the face of it to be the way to go (if you can afford the space). 10 tons of TL12 batteries cost MCr3 and give a reserve of 600 power that cannot be depleted by Ion weapons and can be moved into other systems either once the ion weapon effect dissipates or used to replace lost power. M-Drives cost in the MCr so adding 50% to them gets spendy very quickly.

* I was going to use the Ion Cannon Barbette but something is very off about the damage listed there. 2d6*10 multiplied by 3 for the barbette is the same damage as the small bay. This is way out of whack with the other weapons in Barbettes so either that x10 is wrong or it is instead of the x3 for the barbette.

 

[MasterGwydion]

* I was going to use the Ion Cannon Barbette but something is very off about the damage listed there. 2d6*10 multiplied by 3 for the barbette is the same damage as the small bay. This is way out of whack with the other weapons in Barbettes so either that x10 is wrong or it is instead of the x3 for the barbette.

This last part is a good point.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Even small Ion Weapons stand a pretty good chance of completely depleting non-hardened ships. A small bay Ion cannon* depletes on average 120 power per hit. Most non-military ships in the CRB cannot even generate that level of power and even the military ships do not generate that much SURPLUS power. The M-Drive requirement of high thrust ships is often the majority of their power budget. You find 20 power to operate your life support, but finding 60+ to power your M-drive is a big ask.

I try not to compare military vessels to civilian vessels. The civilian vessel gets crushed. Always. They just don't have the defenses or offenses.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

* I was going to use the Ion Cannon Barbette but something is very off about the damage listed there. 2d6*10 multiplied by 3 for the barbette is the same damage as the small bay. This is way out of whack with the other weapons in Barbettes so either that x10 is wrong or it is instead of the x3 for the barbette.

High Guard 2022 changes the damage to 7D (x3 of course).

 

[swordtart]

Hmm. Lets look at a worked example. I'll use the SBD from CRB p200.

The attacker B1 is irrelevant but they have a small Ion cannon bay (6D * 10 damage). We'll assume it can always hit and does average damage (120) throughout for simplicity.

Let us say the attacker gets surprise. If it not surprised it will be equivalent to round 3 onward.

Round 1.
B1 gets a round of action before SBD can do anything. SBD is hit and loses 120 power. It doesn't do anything this round.
Round 2.
SBD is still on 120 power as it didn't get an Action phase.
It doesn't have enough power to run the M-Drive so it misses the movement phase.
In the combat phase depending on initiative it might either get hit again and lose all the remaining power or it fires off whatever weaponry it wants first and then loses all remaining power. The computer and all consoles shut down, lights go off, gravity fails. Maybe as a military ship they probably have SOPs to cover, but it is still going to be a challenge.
In the actions phase it could overload the power plant to squeeze out 24 extra power at the start of the next round, but since the Ion weapon effects dissipate at the end of the Action phase and 24 power is a drop in the ocean it doesn't seem worth the risk.
Round 3.
SBD gets 240 Power back. There is no residual depletion so it gets all of it. 180 goes to M-Drive and at least it isn't a sitting duck. That only leaves 60 for all other systems though. If it gets hit it will be completely depleted again. If it loses initiative it won't even get to fire before all the power is depleted.
Round 4. etc.

B1 will need something more than just the Ion cannon to actually damage the SBD (assuming that is its aim). Boarding is an option but it is not risk free. The SBD basically has a choice to move and not have power for anything after the combat phase or just sit stationary in space and hope to duke it out. That seems sub optimal.

If B1 got lucky at any point with a 6+ effect then the Ion damage would stack and SBD wouldn't even get the choice. It would not have enough power to move and it will have no power after the combat phase. I am not sure how long you can last without life support (the air doesn't just vanish) but without lights, heat or gravity the situation is going to be grim.

Now you can see that if SBD had Hardened M-Drives then it doesn't really help. If it had Hardened weapons at least it could fire back.

If it had 600 power from 10 Dtons of batteries however it could use the 180 power to move. If it wanted to do anything after the Ion weapon hit in the combat phase it needs to "pay off" the 120 damage. It gets the 60 left from the plant and needs to add 60 from the battery. You are not compelled to use the battery (and in that case the 60 surplus damage simply vanishes when the Ion effect dissipates*) but if you want to spend any power on luxuries like life support you will have to pay the debt before you can us power for anything else.

Any remaining battery storage power could be used to power weapons, life support etc. If it didn't move then after the hit it has 120 power for weapons, life support and to recharge the battery.

The benefit of Hardened batteries is that they can be recharged even if there is persistent Ion damage. Indeed it might be worth just filling them to the max, because you stand to lose it all anyway.

I am not saying this makes sense or is based on any sensible idea of how an Ion weapon would work, but it is faithful to the Ion weapon mechanism and the other power system rules.

* If the hit was from Effect 6+ then the -120 power is persistent and carried over to the next round. When the power regenerates the SBD will have only 120 power available (since the Ion damage is there before the power is regenerated). You could move this to an unhardened M-Drive and top it up to the required 180 with a battery or you could keep it in hand to allocate on later phases, but you are gambling on losing it to another Ion weapon hit.

If the M-drive was hardened any power you allocate to its power buffers is protected against any Ion weapon hit this round. The downside is that it would not be available for other systems this round so there are difficult decisions to make. If the enemy got initiative you might lose it all in the combat phase before you could use it whereas allocating it to the M-Drive would have saved it, if there is no Ion hit though then you loose the chance to fire weapons. You might only move 100 power to the M-Drive to protect it and gamble with the remaining 20.

In the Action phase you can reallocate any power from the M-Drive as you didn't use it and it is added to any power you generate next round. After the persistent Ion damage is taken off (presuming there wasn't extra persistent damage added) you still have 240+100 - 120 or 220 to allocate to systems. You might have more if you overloaded the power plant etc.

The power allocation sequence is:
Get all your power (e.g. from the plant, plus any you got from overloading or reallocating in the Action phase).
Take any persistent damage off what is left. You can go into negative power.
Allocate any power you wish to hardened systems.
You can spend any positive power you have as you go.
Any new Ion damage is taken off your power level as it occurs (which can put you into power debt).
In the Action phase you can try to overload your plant or recover power that was allocated to other systems**. These are added to your power level at the start of you next turn (so are not affected by debt in place now)
After the Action phase:
If you didn't get a 6+ effect and were not surprised this round the Ion effect dissipates and any power debt is cancelled.
Go back to the start of the sequence.

Batteries can add to your power level at any point but you cannot spend battery power on anything until you have cleared any power debt.
** Not quite sure how this works. I tended to assume you allocate power as you use it. If you allocate at the start of the combat round then what happens when you take Ion damage after that? I would presume that you have to clear any power debt by deallocating power from unused systems, but that seems clumsy. It would be easier in game to have a pile of counters representing power and pay them out as you used systems.
Well need to assume that if you pay to power something that is in use throughout the turn (life support for example) then it is paid for immediately (at emergency rate). It's a bit messy to be frank.

 

[swordtart]

High Guard 2022 changes the damage to 7D (x3 of course).

Is there a version number for that. My HG2022 p30 shows 2d*10.

7D also seems high given the small bay is only 6D. Normally the weapon gets more dice damage when moving from the barbette to the bay (in addition to the 3x to 10x multiplier increase).

It would have been much easier if they had increased either the multiplier or the damage rather than changing both (and raising damage in an inconsistent way between weapons as well. We could have had much simpler tables and spreadsheets

 

[MasterGwydion]

Hmm. Lets look at a worked example. I'll use the SBD from CRB p200.

The attacker B1 is irrelevant but they have a small Ion cannon bay (6D * 10 damage). Well assume it can always hit and does average damage throughout for simplicity.

So lets say the attacker gets surprise.

Round 1.
B1 gets a round of action before SBD can do anything. SBD is hit and loses 120 power. It doesn't do anything this round.
Round 2.
SBD is still on 120 power as it didn't get an Action phase.
It doesn't have enough power to run the M-Drive so it misses the movement phase.
In the combat phase depending on initiative it might either get hit again and lose all the remaining power or it fires off whatever weaponry it wants first and then loses all remaining power. The computer and all consoles shut down, lights go off, gravity fails. Maybe as amilitray ship they have SOPs to cover, but it is still going to be a challenge.
In the actions phase it could overload the power plant to squeeze out 24 extra power at the start of the next round, but since the Ion weapon effects dissipate at the end of the Action phase and 24 power is a drop in the ocean it doesn't seem worth the risk.
Round 3.
SBD gets 240 Power back. There is no residual depletion so it gets all of it. 180 goes to M-Drive and at least it isn't a sitting duck. That only leaves 60 for all other systems though. If it gets hit again it will be completely depleted again. If it loses initiative it won't even get to fire before all the power is depleted.
Round 4. etc.

B1 will need something more than just the Ion cannon to actually damage the SBD (assuming that is its aim). Boarding is an option but it is not risk free. The SBD basically has a choice to move and not have power for anything after the combat phase or just sit stationary in space and hope to duke it out. That seems sub optimal.

If B1 got lucky at any point with a 6+ effect then the Ion damage would stack and SBD wouldn't even get the choice. It would not have enough power to move and it will have no power after the combat phase. I am not sure how long you can last without life support (the air doesn't just vanish) but without lights, heat or gravity the situation is going to be grim.

Now you can see that if SBD had Hardened M-Drives then it doesn't really help. If it had Hardened weapons at least it could fire back.

If it had 600 power from 10 Dtons of batteries it could use the 180 power to move. If it wanted to do anything after the Ion weapon hit in the combat phase it needs to "pay off" the 120 damage. I gets the 60 left from the plant and needs to add 60 from the battery. You are not compelled to use the battery (and in that case the 60 surplus damage has no effect) but if you want to spend any power on luxuries like life support you will have to pay the debt before you can us power for anything else.

Any remaining battery storage power could be used to power weapons, life support etc. If it didn't move then after the hit it has 120 power for weapons, life support and to recharge the battery.

This is why I use house rules that allow armor to count against Ion Damage when the ship has Radiation Shielding. Makes it useful, but not overpowering.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Is there a version number for that. My HG2022 p30 shows 2d*10.

Mine is the 2024 printing (hard cover)

Small bay 6D, Medium 8D and Large 10D.

 

[swordtart]

Mine is the 2024 printing (hard cover)

Small bay 6D, Medium 8D and Large 10D.

Ah. I have the PDF so that tracks.

It also shows bays as 6D, 8D and 10D so I am still not sure why the barbette would be 7D

 

[swordtart]

This is why I use house rules that allow armor to count against Ion Damage when the ship has Radiation Shielding. Makes it useful, but not overpowering.

Yeah, I am not actually sure what "and treats the bridge as if it is Hardened" means within the context of Ion weapons. Which components are in the bride when I come to allocate power to them. I can only assume it is the 20% of power for the "ships systems" which include anything that does not have dedicated tonnage elsewhere (Sensors, Drives, Weapons etc). It isn't ideal as life support also goes to the staterooms (and common areas) that have dedicated tonnage, so you could say the bridge is only the emergency 10% (and we'll assume that no-one is going to freeze or asphyxiate within the duration of a space combat. Gravity will also be switched off so passengers will need to strap-in and be confined to their staterooms, but that seems sensible anyway.

I think it is because hardening had meaning before Ion weapons and Ion weapons added a game mechanic onto it that doesn't make sense for all previously hardened equipment. It needs a tidy up.

EDIT:
Sensors are part of the bridge but I am assuming that this can only be the Basic sensors as the others require extra tonnage and have discrete power requirements.

What about the computer though. It doesn't take any extra tonnage or power. If you have a hardened bridge do you need a /fib computer?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ah. I have the PDF so that tracks.

It also shows bays as 6D, 8D and 10D so I am still not sure why the barbette would be 7D

Isn't the barbette 7D x 3, while the bay is 6D x 10?

 

[swordtart]

Isn't the barbette 7D x 3, while the bay is 6D x 10?

Yes but if you look at the other weapons the multiplier increases as you move up but the base damage is higher as well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Another random Virus question.

Can the Virus be detected with the Psionic Power "Life Detection"?

 

[MasterGwydion]

and another one.

What is the minimum TL equipment required for the Virus to become sentient?

What is the minimum TL equipment required for the Virus to implant an egg?

 

[rinku]

Virus as such was engineered from Cymbelline chips, which are already sentient, given sufficient computing power. It's not so much a matter of TL, outside of the higher the TL the more powerful the computer. Virus won't get far with TL7, but if the TL7 computer in question was a major world server, it might do.

I would tend to say it's smartish on a big TL8 one, smart on a TL9 one and very smart above that.

The chips can reproduce in the wild, even when unintelligent. I'd say they can probably infect any TL6+ system that has persistent storage.

Psionics... I'd say no with Life Detection. Zho usually need special electronics to be able to interface with their minds, although you might have Machine Telepathy as a rare special talent. Those guys should be able to detect it.

Unless a strain of virus itself developed the mind/machine circuits.

It probably WASN'T designed with that possibility, so it would need to evolve it. But then it might work it out from infecting just one Zho ship with the right Machine/Psionic circuitry.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Virus as such was engineered from Cymbelline chips, which are already sentient, given sufficient computing power.

Only those that had used the chips from the crashed Terran cruiser, the rest were of no more than animal intelligence.

Reading up the chips were discovered twice... the Imperium discovered them decades ago and began their experiments, while the sentient chips were discovered by an independent scientist decades later. The chips the Imperium experimented with appear to be the animal analogues, raised to sentience by Imperial experimentation.

It's not so much a matter of TL, outside of the higher the TL the more powerful the computer. Virus won't get far with TL7, but if the TL7 computer in question was a major world server, it might do.

In MgT terms I would add a bandwidth requirement for the different levels pf intelligence Virus can display.

I would tend to say it's smartish on a big TL8 one, smart on a TL9 one and very smart above that.

The chips can reproduce in the wild, even when unintelligent. I'd say they can probably infect any TL6+ system that has persistent storage.

Psionics... I'd say no with Life Detection. Zho usually need special electronics to be able to interface with their minds, although you might have Machine Telepathy as a rare special talent. Those guys should be able to detect it.

This is an interesting question, TNE core rule book does refer to Virus as a lifeform, so the question is if the psionic discipline only works on carbon based life...

Unless a strain of virus itself developed the mind/machine circuits.

Vampire Fleets is worth a look if you want to go down this rabbit hole.

It probably WASN'T designed with that possibility, so it would need to evolve it. But then it might work it out from infecting just one Zho ship with the right Machine/Psionic circuitry.

Which begs the question of how psionic the machinery the Zho interact with is...

plenty for a referee to play with for their setting.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Only those that had used the chips from the crashed Terran cruiser, the rest were of no more than animal intelligence.

Reading up the chips were discovered twice... the Imperium discovered them decades ago and began their experiments, while the sentient chips were discovered by an independent scientist decades later. The chips the Imperium experimented with appear to be the animal analogues, raised to sentience by Imperial experimentation.

In MgT terms I would add a bandwidth requirement for the different levels pf intelligence Virus can display.

I can't figure out a good way to design a system for that, but I agree.

This is an interesting question, TNE core rule book does refer to Virus as a lifeform, so the question is if the psionic discipline only works on carbon based life...

The power just says minds. Obviously the Virus is sentient and therefore has a mind. It should be able to detect any mind that is sentient. Machine Psionics seem to only work on non-sentient machines/computers.

Vampire Fleets is worth a look if you want to go down this rabbit hole.

Been reading it again lately.

Which begs the question of how psionic the machinery the Zho interact with is...

plenty for a referee to play with for their setting.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I don't know where this info is actually published at, but I found this on the wiki for Usdiki. This seems to indicate that for hardware infection a silicon-based electronic is required.


and this on the same page.

 

[collins355]

I'm so sorry, but once again I believe this is fanon published uncredited on the wiki. I can't find this info anywhere in published material by GDW.

It has become my belief that the wiki as it is needs to be burnt to the ground and started again. Too many people are being misled.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm so sorry, but once again I believe this is fanon published uncredited on the wiki. I can't find this info anywhere in published material by GDW.

It has become my belief that the wiki as it is needs to be burnt to the ground and started again. Too many people are being misled.

Awesome! Thanks! I couldn't find it either.