The Two Arenjuns

[Terrible Tim]

When running your "own" Conan campaign, I suggest you pick one map which you like and stick with it. It game terms it doesn't really matter if the party travel one day from "Town A" to "Town B" or two days or more (just more ramdom encounters ) .... Adventures can be modified slightly to reflect your indiviual style and game.

Good gaming.
TT.

 

[kintire]

Sadly the site with the original argument seems to be down still, but for me the slam dunk point was from this:

"By Bel, god of all thieves, I'll show them how to steal wenches: I'll have her over the Zamorian border before dawn, and there'll be a caravan waiting to receive her. Three hundred pieces of silver, a count of Ophir promised me for a sleek young Brythunian of the better class. It took me weeks, wandering among the border cities as a beggar, to find one I knew would suit. And is she a pretty baggage!"

It hardly seems likely that the kidnapper would be wandering the Zamorian - Turanian border cities looking for a Brythunian girl. You find Brythunians in Brythunia. If this kidnapper is using the City of Thieves as a base for kidnapping a Brythunian and is proposing to have her over the Zamorian border before dawn, even if he doesn't mean dawn of this night the city must be near the Brythunian border.

 

[Supplement Four]

"By Bel, god of all thieves, I'll show them how to steal wenches: I'll have her over the Zamorian border before dawn, and there'll be a caravan waiting to receive her. Three hundred pieces of silver, a count of Ophir promised me for a sleek young Brythunian of the better class. It took me weeks, wandering among the border cities as a beggar, to find one I knew would suit. And is she a pretty baggage!"

I see your point, but I think its hardly conclusive. In that same story, Howard describes a Hyperborean renegade, a dark eyed Zamorian, a Shemitish counterfeiter, a Gunderman deserter, and a bold eyed Brythunian.

Obviously, some parts of the known world are quite cosmopolitain. Many Brythunians are in Brythunia, but certainly not all of them.

The Kothian that said those words, boasting in a tavern, would have no way, really, of getting through the mountains in the middle of the night by dawn even if he tried. It would be mighty-slow going on a mountain trail, in the dark, even discounting all that we know lives in those mountains between Brythunia and Zamora.

Secondly is just the distance and how fast a horse can carry a human in a day. Forgetting pitch-black darkness and dangerous mountain trails, it i some distance through the mountains to Brythunia.

So, I don't take the Kothian's remark (who said that sentence above) as anything more than tavern boasting.

I hardly think it stands as proof that Arenjun and the City of Thieves are two different places.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Keep in mind, the whole of the article was not reproduced, just one bit of the evidence. The article was written with the idea of where it would be placed if only Howard's story was used - if de Camp had not retroactively named the city and placed it elsewhere. Unfortunately, I cannot find a copy of the article to show all the evidence used. I am sure I saved a copy of it to my computer somewhere, but I can't find it.

 

[kintire]

I see your point, but I think its hardly conclusive. In that same story, Howard describes a Hyperborean renegade, a dark eyed Zamorian, a Shemitish counterfeiter, a Gunderman deserter, and a bold eyed Brythunian.

But this only makes it more likely that the city is in the west. Brythunians are more likely to be found near Brythunia, Hyperboreans near Hyperborea and so on. The Shemite is a long way from home, but as a counterfeiter he is more likely to be a settled Shemite than a nomad, so he will be from the South west. Wanderers from Turan, Hyrkania or the steppelands are conspicuous by their absence.

The Kothian that said those words, boasting in a tavern, would have no way, really, of getting through the mountains in the middle of the night by dawn even if he tried. It would be mighty-slow going on a mountain trail, in the dark, even discounting all that we know lives in those mountains between Brythunia and Zamora.

Secondly is just the distance and how fast a horse can carry a human in a day. Forgetting pitch-black darkness and dangerous mountain trails, it i some distance through the mountains to Brythunia.

The Kothian is undoubtedly bragging. But people have been smuggling across the Pyrenees in a night for centuries (millennia...). And we have no idea where exactly in those mountains the border runs.

 

[Supplement Four]

But this only makes it more likely that the city is in the west. Brythunians are more likely to be found near Brythunia, Hyperboreans near Hyperborea and so on. The Shemite is a long way from home, but as a counterfeiter he is more likely to be a settled Shemite than a nomad, so he will be from the South west. Wanderers from Turan, Hyrkania or the steppelands are conspicuous by their absence.

I don't think it makes it more likely that the city in in the west because of the people mentioned. Zamora is cosmopolitian. Arenjun and Shadizar are its two chief trading cities. We know that the two are fairly close together (not at opposite poles of the kingdom).

And, as heavy trading cities, they draw the traffic from all borders. So, a brythunian is more likely to be where the action is in the kingdom rather than closer to his own country.

Don't forget, some of these people are very far from home. The Gunderman mentioned--from Aquilonia, and Taurus, the master thief, from Nemedia.

These people were drawn to a place like Cairo, where the action is, and not to Alexandria just because its on the coast.

The Kothian is undoubtedly bragging. But people have been smuggling across the Pyrenees in a night for centuries (millennia...). And we have no idea where exactly in those mountains the border runs.

But, let's not forget Turan's involvement with slavery. Isn't it just about the slaving capitalof the Hyborian Age?

Wouldn't it make sense to get the Brythunian over the border to Turan just as much as it would Brythunia or Ophir? He said he would get the girl to a caravan...not necessarily to Ophir directly. The Ophirian count might be getting his slave by caravan by way of Turan.

 

[kintire]

I don't think it makes it more likely that the city in in the west because of the people mentioned. Zamora is cosmopolitian. Arenjun and Shadizar are its two chief trading cities. We know that the two are fairly close together (not at opposite poles of the kingdom).

How do we know this?

Don't forget, some of these people are very far from home. The Gunderman mentioned--from Aquilonia, and Taurus, the master thief, from Nemedia.

These people were drawn to a place like Cairo, where the action is, and not to Alexandria just because its on the coast.

So its just a coincidence they are all from the west? No Turanians are interested in this actuion? No Vendhyans? No Hyrkanians? no Iranistani?

But, let's not forget Turan's involvement with slavery. Isn't it just about the slaving capitalof the Hyborian Age?

Possibly not at the time of Tower of the Elephant. Its an early tale in Conan's carerr. Yezdigerds campaigns of conquest are still a few years ahead. And anyway, you don't need to kidnap slaves. You can buy them.

Wouldn't it make sense to get the Brythunian over the border to Turan just as much as it would Brythunia or Ophir? He said he would get the girl to a caravan...not necessarily to Ophir directly. The Ophirian count might be getting his slave by caravan by way of Turan.

The Kothian is based in Zamora. He is getting the girl over the border INTO Zamora, not out of it. And actually it doesn't make as much sense, no. Although the next kingdom east of Zamora is Turan, they don't actually share a border in the sense that their heartlands touch. Turan's actual settled territory with cities is hundreds of miles south east along the shores of the Vilayet sea.