The Pirate in the Traveller Universe

[Reynard]

I knew I would have to clarify since this has been a sticking point in the jump and maneuver debate on this forum.

Once again, charted worlds have their properties well known. As a side note, I read a long time back, probably in one of the various Scout sources, that scout surveys enter new systems from the outer area where contact with unknown bodies would be extremely unlikely, then build up a model as they explore inward. And again I bring up known proper motions both for the overall system and the target such as a mainworld. By knowing the proper motions of both the origin system and the destination, a navigator feeds the proper velocity difference before jump to negate the motion of the next system or as Couriers and military vessels might need to move at speed, plot an exit vector. (No speed is not a vector).

 

[GypsyComet]

No harder to believe than the various Furries that populate the universe or FTL travel

Not even in the same order of magnitude, sorry.

Purposeful uplift (Vargr, Dolphins, Ursa) is nowhere near the same level of belief suspension as separate-but-parallel evolution Furries (ala Other Suns). Go read some of that, then come back to Traveller and realize just how bad Traveller's uplift *isn't*. You might even cleanse your palate with some Brin.

 

[Ataraxzy]

By knowing the proper motions of both the origin system and the destination, a navigator feeds the proper velocity difference before jump to negate the motion of the next system or as Couriers and military vessels might need to move at speed, plot an exit vector. (No speed is not a vector).

Exactly.

The OTU conserves momentum across jumps. This 'stopping' to jump thing is land-lubber thinking, "oh, I'm doing something potentially dangerous, I should stop and check first."

Of course, that means that people who stop are just guaranteeing large relative velocities compared to the objects they're jumping to.

Were I on the receiving end of a Far Trader who jumped in with a relative velocity of 150,000 m/s (a shade less that that between us and Barnard's Star), depending on how close the idjit was, I'd blast him out of the sky and let the pieces melt in the atmosphere or laugh my fool head off at the fact that he's got to bleed velocity at a crushing 3G's for a smidge shy of an hour and a half just to match up.(1)


(1): (Veloc_Final - Veloc_Init)/Acceleration = Time to reach final velocity.
In this case, our values are (0 - 150,000m/s)/29.4m/s^2 = ~5,100s (or 85 minutes) [29.4m/s^2 is 3Gs of thrust]

 

[Reynard]

All so true. The discussion though is a moment outside the game to explain to ourselves they hows and whys. People were saying pirating is impossible in the game though the game allows pirate encounters so here we can say it can happen. I assume people who have no problem will have pirates in space using the rules.

On this thread, we can say, in great detail, why it can be possible or impossible without really ever effecting anyone's game or it may shape a game.

 

[Ataraxzy]

Actually that is "Real world thinking". The problem is that most groups simply do not care about that. They want an easy game. And lets face it, Traveller IS simplified and game-optimized already:

Two dimensional "flat" space"
Stars spaced at multiples of 3.26LY
FTL drive
In most systems a reactionless drive
Anti-Grav and Compensators

Droping the relative velocity between stars is an easy step. Playability/ease of game over realism

Actually, it's Cannon:

The laws of conservation of mass and
energy continue to operate on ships
which have jumped; when a ship exits
jump it retains the speed and direction
that it had when it entered jump...

An additional complication is imposed
on ships when the two star systems
involved have a high [sic.] proper motion with
respect to each other. In that case, a ship
must take into account relative velocity
between the two, when computing
speeds and directions.

And please don't generalize to 'most groups' unless you can provide a statistical data set for your claim. We both know you can't, so please just say, "I prefer ease of game over realism," as your preferences are hardly universal. Even if it is your experience, the likelihood of you experiencing a statistical anomaly is too large to ignore, esp. considering the crunchiness of the rules.

If some groups don't care about the advantages of arriving at a dead stop relative to their destination and the utility of having their prey be required to match vectors before jumping (allowing the PCs time to intercept, letting them track &ct); then that's their problem, why should we care? Seriously, why?

And lastly, how is this 'harder' or worth arguing about? Either you stop in-origin and have to accelerate in-destination (or you hand-wave it as 'stopped in both systems,' a non-cannon approach that you should label as such), you accelerate in-origin and arrive stopped in-destination OR, you tell your GM that "I want HMS Friendly Puppy to arrive in-system with a relative velocity of X m/s."

 

[Ataraxzy]

All so true. The discussion though is a moment outside the game to explain to ourselves they hows and whys. People were saying pirating is impossible in the game though the game allows pirate encounters so here we can say it can happen. I assume people who have no problem will have pirates in space using the rules.

On this thread, we can say, in great detail, why it can be possible or impossible without really ever effecting anyone's game or it may shape a game.

Agreed.

The nice thing about RPGs is that you can make up ANYTHING to explain how the rules are working in the background to give you the results 'visible' to your characters.

There are no rules or statements requiring piracy to be easy or hard, so it's left up to individual GMs.

IMTU? Piracy is pretty easy to initiate; hard to complete. Capturing the ship isn't the hard part, it's the 'how the hell are we going to sell that cargo' that gets 'em, every time. (Well, w/o a Letter of Marque...)

 

[alex_greene]

IMTU? Piracy is pretty easy to initiate; hard to complete. Capturing the ship isn't the hard part, it's the 'how the hell are we going to sell that cargo' that gets 'em, every time. (Well, w/o a Letter of Marque...)

That's where having Contacts and Allies comes in.

 

[Reynard]

FINALLY figured out why they were trying to charge me 8 pounds S&H for a free, downloadable copy of Pirates of Drinax. Ahem.. So now I have the campaign and the information for piracy is excellent even for home brew campaigns involving pirate though I do hope to get some people together who are tiring of D&D every week for this to try this campaign.

I like their system for determining the attitude of worlds towards freebooters. Takes some of the guess work when mapping a sector or subsector. Must delve more.

 

[alex_greene]

Gentlemen, please let's observe gentlemanly decorum here. Separate and go to your corners now, please.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, ease up on the fusion drive rum! Arhh!

 

[Ataraxzy]

Yeah, ease up on the fusion drive rum! Arhh!

Heh. Agreed.

Not sure why Somebody decided to make an MTU-is-better-than-YTU argument. Wasn't expecting that. /weird.

 

[GypsyComet]

Random pedantry:

Cannon is a type of weapon.

Canon is a body of laws. Originally applied to the laws of the Roman Catholic Church, the term has since been adopted by the fan and world-building communities.

Fortunately, Traveller isn't given to using things like "laser cannons", but the two terms do still get confused.

 

[gylesw]

For me, Ataraxzy has it right.

It is a fact and canon that ship retain vectors in Jump and that starts have velocities relative to each other. It's fine if YTU does do that, but those two factors have interesting implications.

For example, a ship departing Whatchacallit for Thingamee would head in a set direction so that at 100d it would have the required vector to arrive in the Thingamee system with near zero relative velocity. If the delta V was small this might mean not thrusting all the way to 100d, or having to thrust beyond 100d if the delta V was large.

Also, I am totally cool with systems of even quite modest technology population and star port ratings having regulations about maximum velocity allowed inbound to any populated world within 200,000 km, say 20 km/s, allowing for a final approach of three hours or so, and would view dimly those who broke the rules and hail this who were inbound and not shedding v fast enough to be at a safe velocity within space traffic control. Don't think we need to explain why having ships with high v moving with an intercept to a planets atmosphere is a bad idea. Also allows easy boarding and inspection by the authorities.

So a 1g ship departing at 12:00 on Tuesday from Whatchacallit for Thingamee would arrive with a know velocity in a comparatively small cube of space at a known time. And ships with matching v nearby would not be inherently suspicious.

So intercepts are possible, and the tight beam message from a vessel shaping for Thingamee informing you to prepare for either boarding or incoming fire is viable. And intercepts within space traffic control are also easy, but risky as that is where the fuzz is.

But why would a pirate select a ship?

If it's lifting cargo, then because of Intel. Port side info telling of a worthwhile cargo. Cargo is easy to shift.

Ships on the other hand... Obviously if you nick a ship and pull it apart for parts, fine, but you need a supply chain and logistics for that. If you want to sell the ship whole, then either a way of 'grooming it' so it is saleable, or taking it where someone will buy it knowing it is stolen.

So, pirates would have crew or agents port side. A small pirate ship (e.g. A2 trader, type R, modified with more G and full weapons load out but carrying a spoofable transponder) would depart so as to be able to put the move on MV Rich Pickings. With insurance, if the pirates are just after your cargo, letting them have it is a good option. Pirate then jumps to arrive in a different system (not Thingamee), changes identity, and sells cargo. Or as those in the ten trade call it, rinse and repeat.

If they are after your ship you are dead, but that requires a pirate band and organisation. Ship either gets a prize crew and goes to the chop shop, or gets loaded in a bay for transport.

A base need not be in system. A pirate base could be between systems. You steal a nice big k ton ship with lots of cargo space, fit collapsible tanks, brim it, and jump to x. This is now a pirate base. Say it has J2, and can remain on station for two months whilst refuelling other pirate vessel before jumping out to scoop fuel. They'd look for a low tech low star port system with a gas giant far removed from the main world. Some of the stolen vessels would run stolen cargo and stripped parts and be seemingly legit.

So, yeah, pirates work m'harties, but have to be well organised.

 

[sideranautae]

For me, Ataraxzy has it right.

It is a fact and canon that ship retain vectors in Jump

It isn't a fact in MGT. Rules from another edition cannot be assumed between editions that aren't written into an edition. :wink:

It is a possible House rule though.

 

[Reynard]

A lot of rules aren't described in depth with Mongoose Traveller. That's why we have to refer to other earlier sources considered canon and work from there. That's when one can say "Older sources say it happens this way and that's what we use.", otherwise, it's best to say "There's no detail either way but our group does it this way."

Back to plunderin'!

 

[sideranautae]

A lot of rules aren't described in depth with Mongoose Traveller. That's why we have to refer to other earlier sources considered canon and work from there.

Um, no. Lots of people play MGT without having ANY material from prior editions. Ergo, you don't HAVE to house rule from past editions. :?

The rules are written in MGT are stand alone.

 

[Reynard]

You left out the 'otherwise' part of my statement. Don't quote out of context.

 

[sideranautae]

You left out the 'otherwise' part of my statement. Don't quote out of context.

That part was irrelevant to the other point you were making. Which WAS the part I quoted. Since it was immediately above my comment it wasn't an attempt to mislead. OBVIOUSLY. :lol:

 

[phavoc]

I'm with Reynard on this one. MGT rules mention NOTHING about retaining your speed and bearing when entering/leaving jump space. That doesn't mean you do, and it doesn't mean you don't. Since MGT has no information on the particular issue, it's not unreasonable or unheard of to refer back to earlier versions of the rules to define a rule. To say otherwise would mean that MGT Traveller is completely different than every previous version. And it's not. Some pieces are lifted essentially verbatim from previous versions, other sections have been tweaked and modified. This particular instance falls into one of those issues that isn't addressed at all.

The original work published by Miller in the early magazines (available from FFE on the CD) stated that ships going into jumps retained their course and velocity upon exit. If I recall correctly, he mentioned specifically that most ships tend to come to a relative stop before jumping because when they also retain the angular velocity and momentum of the system they are jumping from and take it to the system they are jumping to. It is easier and quicker if they minimize the differences upon arrival so they spend less time (potentially) cancelling out their previous vector and speed to get to their destination. Jumping isn't an exact science, plus civilian ships aren't going to take on extra risks unless they absolutely have to.

On a more IMTU note, I came up with something that more or less organizes busier systems arrival zones into sectors, with each potential system that is in range having a specific zone they are to arrive in, and each zone is alloted to a ship by the departing planet to ensure they don't overlap. Upon arrival the ship moves to an inbound lane and can then accelerate towards out of the arrival zone. Once they reach the 100D limit they can contact traffic control for vectors to wherever they are wanting to go. I used the same reasoning we use today - it's better to be safe than sorry. While space IS big, and at 100D the amount of volume ships can come and go in is pretty large, it is still possible for accidents to happen. And it's the responsibility of the government to make space travel as safe as possible. So having some kind of system in place to minimize the potential for collisions just makes a lot of practical sense. Obviously you really don't need something as sophisticated for hardly-trafficed planets, but there's still usually something there just to be safe.

 

[sideranautae]

In frontier areas (not talking 3I setting) pirates are more likely to be privateers. Just like in the age of sail, they MANY times more numerous than unaffiliated pirates. Having safe ports is critical to longer term survival.