The Future of BF Evo - and a Poll. . .
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Ali the conqueror
Mongoose
Yo matt, did you catch the idea of putting background to the 'new' BF Evo? Put our true historical modern wars background + Tom clancy fictional background. Now that's a good product :wink:
And as for new minis, I think.... it is best if we stick on un-assembled and un-painted (now I'm sure for 100%) and built it as multi part plastic kits and don't tell me that mongoose never done this... I buy that planetary defense blue bugs from SST (I forgot the name of the creature) and you produce one amazing multi part plastic kits. Multi part plastic kits can be modelled as anyway I can and can even lead to custom/different look army (anyone think USMC turn to mercenary army? :wink: ).
And BTW... I repeat again, I want to see this games and no delay whatsoever for any reason. Modern combat tabletop games is something that I've been looking for 7 years and don't screw that one... it will be a blaze if you done it correctly and always take notion from players like me and others (especially from evocommand.com).
And as for new minis, I think.... it is best if we stick on un-assembled and un-painted (now I'm sure for 100%) and built it as multi part plastic kits and don't tell me that mongoose never done this... I buy that planetary defense blue bugs from SST (I forgot the name of the creature) and you produce one amazing multi part plastic kits. Multi part plastic kits can be modelled as anyway I can and can even lead to custom/different look army (anyone think USMC turn to mercenary army? :wink: ).
And BTW... I repeat again, I want to see this games and no delay whatsoever for any reason. Modern combat tabletop games is something that I've been looking for 7 years and don't screw that one... it will be a blaze if you done it correctly and always take notion from players like me and others (especially from evocommand.com).
Sgt. Scream
Mongoose
That brought up an interesting idea, Ali.
Multi-part soldiers.....and faction blisters that have the heads (different helmet or boney hats) and weapons in.
You could sell a soldier box with multipart miniatures of the USCM for example and than add just blisters with the parts to convert the fatigue/uniform bodies into British soldiers or Chinese. The blisters could also have enough parts to field Bazookas or machineguns. :shock:
I mean: The PIG IRON kind of way to customize one and the same soldier into all factions. Of course insurgents would need some civilian set that could be converted with a FEDAYEEN parts blister.
I should sell this idea :shock: :lol:
Low budget: just one box.
Low budget 2: Blisters with metal parts to convert alls the types of soldiers in the army you've chosen.
Low budget 3: Blister with all faction relevant parts to create all armies out of one multipart basic box.
Now, MGP: Don't tell me that is impossible.
Multi-part soldiers.....and faction blisters that have the heads (different helmet or boney hats) and weapons in.
You could sell a soldier box with multipart miniatures of the USCM for example and than add just blisters with the parts to convert the fatigue/uniform bodies into British soldiers or Chinese. The blisters could also have enough parts to field Bazookas or machineguns. :shock:
I mean: The PIG IRON kind of way to customize one and the same soldier into all factions. Of course insurgents would need some civilian set that could be converted with a FEDAYEEN parts blister.
I should sell this idea :shock: :lol:
Low budget: just one box.
Low budget 2: Blisters with metal parts to convert alls the types of soldiers in the army you've chosen.
Low budget 3: Blister with all faction relevant parts to create all armies out of one multipart basic box.
Now, MGP: Don't tell me that is impossible.
Armchair_Marine
Mongoose
Aussie-Richard said:
Yeah, there's got to be a timeframe for the 'new' BF EVO soon, otherwise I feel we're going to have to wait another year for anything new.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
QFTWishbone said:
)I agree with the pick back up where you left off. - stay the course.
When talking with the MGP folks at Origins and Gencon last year what happened with the reasons on the delays that the minis quality had to improve or the price had to drop on them? Is there not a way to pick this back up and shop it around? Or at least finish the sets that you already have the prototypes done for.
If for some reason this game can still not keep the "Pre-Painted" minis as heavily advertised I guess my time and money here with this company will come to a end. It hurts to say that after all that was invested and how much I really believed in this game, but life goes on...after all this is just a game. (plus, we will always have the minis we purchased to use with other game rules and for this I am grateful)
While I'm at it I guess I should apologize for the manor in which I expressed my great disappoint and displeasure on this announcement from MGP. As it was plain and clear that it was not to some folks liking here. Perhaps I should have just voted - my error.
Just be careful if they tell you to drink the Kool-Aid.
:wink:
When talking with the MGP folks at Origins and Gencon last year what happened with the reasons on the delays that the minis quality had to improve or the price had to drop on them? Is there not a way to pick this back up and shop it around? Or at least finish the sets that you already have the prototypes done for.
If for some reason this game can still not keep the "Pre-Painted" minis as heavily advertised I guess my time and money here with this company will come to a end. It hurts to say that after all that was invested and how much I really believed in this game, but life goes on...after all this is just a game. (plus, we will always have the minis we purchased to use with other game rules and for this I am grateful)
While I'm at it I guess I should apologize for the manor in which I expressed my great disappoint and displeasure on this announcement from MGP. As it was plain and clear that it was not to some folks liking here. Perhaps I should have just voted - my error.
Just be careful if they tell you to drink the Kool-Aid.
:wink:
Well Wishbone, the thing is the quality they were getting from the factory they contracted out of China fell to such an unacceptable level, that they ended up loosing the investment money, and couldn't really recoup their losses. So currently, we're looking at a situation where:
- Lack of Funds = Lack of Investment Capital = Inability to Contract a New Company.
A deal with Ubisoft would have been a way to get around this little hurtle..
So, in a nut shell it's pretty much impossible to really get it going without something short of three or four tons of monies showing up at their door-step.
- Lack of Funds = Lack of Investment Capital = Inability to Contract a New Company.
A deal with Ubisoft would have been a way to get around this little hurtle..
So, in a nut shell it's pretty much impossible to really get it going without something short of three or four tons of monies showing up at their door-step.
shotgun-toting chipmunk
Mongoose
The more I think about it, the more concerned I am that Option 1 is getting so many votes. It really sounds like the status quo, where everybody complains about lack of support and comes up with their own options if only to keep themselves entertained.
Option 2 is all about a new setting 30 years in the future, sci-fi hightech. It turns me off. :?
Continue the same scale and plans, Wave 4, un-painted metal. Resin for vehicles.
Drop air assets scale down to 1/72. Its absolutely pointless investiging in air models that won't sell.
I will not buy air assets at 1/64. Not a chance. The 1/72 option is common sense, cheap and no point competing against established manufactures (who's quality you will not match or price.)
What f***ing annoys me the most. All those people who complained about the painting standard. Those people GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
What the f*** did you expect for a pre-painted game made my medium size company?
I asked many friends opinion on the painting, some hobbyists ,some not. All agreed they were Gaming standard and most thought the Standard Good!.
You want expert prre-painted miniatures ?
Well you go and PAY BIG Money to a miniatures painter. :evil:
This game suffered a hangover from the Hobbyist crowd. Have you realised yet that this is Pre-Painted straight outta the box and play game? This was a New departure, allowances should have been made.
BUT NO! To much for the stuck up hobby crowd. And i bet they couldn't paint much better themselves.
Rant over.
Continue the same scale and plans, Wave 4, un-painted metal. Resin for vehicles.
Drop air assets scale down to 1/72. Its absolutely pointless investiging in air models that won't sell.
I will not buy air assets at 1/64. Not a chance. The 1/72 option is common sense, cheap and no point competing against established manufactures (who's quality you will not match or price.)
What f***ing annoys me the most. All those people who complained about the painting standard. Those people GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
What the f*** did you expect for a pre-painted game made my medium size company?
I asked many friends opinion on the painting, some hobbyists ,some not. All agreed they were Gaming standard and most thought the Standard Good!.
You want expert prre-painted miniatures ?
Well you go and PAY BIG Money to a miniatures painter. :evil:
This game suffered a hangover from the Hobbyist crowd. Have you realised yet that this is Pre-Painted straight outta the box and play game? This was a New departure, allowances should have been made.
BUT NO! To much for the stuck up hobby crowd. And i bet they couldn't paint much better themselves.
Rant over.
shotgun-toting chipmunk
Mongoose
As I stated before, I agree. The current setting is part of the huge appeal for this game. I have SST and Battletech for my sci-fi fix.
Now for another question: What's with people thinking "Oh, everybody's going to go to other prepainted games now?" Personally, I like the setting. No other prepainted game is getting my money. I really don't care about ninjas vs aliens or space monkeys.
Now for another question: What's with people thinking "Oh, everybody's going to go to other prepainted games now?" Personally, I like the setting. No other prepainted game is getting my money. I really don't care about ninjas vs aliens or space monkeys.
What I want to see from Mongoose is a decent set of rules, good miniatures and LONGEVITY. I'm getting tired of the promise of 'the next big thing' only to see it fall flat on its face. Mongoose isn't the only company doing this, but as a consumer I'm REALLY tired of it. You may argue that if I buy a box of minis and that's what you give me, then what am I complaining about? But without continued support and efforts made by someone other than me to involve people in the game, the money, from my point of view, is essentially wasted. All I'm left with are minis that I can't use to game with (which is why I buy them - not to collect them) and that take up space.
Whatever Mongoose do I will wait 5 years before I spend any serious money again. If you can come up with a game that stays on the shelf that long and that builds up a following then I'll be in on it. Otherwise I'm gonna continue playing GW and Magic. And you can argue that they are money drains, but that's not a problem. I don't mind spending a higher than average amount on a game I'm going to play.
What I want to see with BF:EVO is business as normal. That's selfish of me, yes, but Mr Sprange was arguing the case that the minis were in fact good enough from a gaming perspective a long time ago when first released, and the price was okay then. That, and a combined move to an OGL-type of thing. How I feel though is that once again I have bought into something that has managed to keep a company afloat, allow for a little expansion, and has then been dropped leaving me high and dry while the company move onto 'the next big thing' (a return of SST it seems) that, I anticipate, will do nothing more than keep the company afloat for a while, allow for a little expansion, and then be dropped for 'the next big thing'.
It's too bad the license didn't work out for you guys, and most likely for us too (I say most likely because it may have been something else that flares for a while and then fizzles out after varioys amounts of monies have been spent).
Cheers,
Eisho
Whatever Mongoose do I will wait 5 years before I spend any serious money again. If you can come up with a game that stays on the shelf that long and that builds up a following then I'll be in on it. Otherwise I'm gonna continue playing GW and Magic. And you can argue that they are money drains, but that's not a problem. I don't mind spending a higher than average amount on a game I'm going to play.
What I want to see with BF:EVO is business as normal. That's selfish of me, yes, but Mr Sprange was arguing the case that the minis were in fact good enough from a gaming perspective a long time ago when first released, and the price was okay then. That, and a combined move to an OGL-type of thing. How I feel though is that once again I have bought into something that has managed to keep a company afloat, allow for a little expansion, and has then been dropped leaving me high and dry while the company move onto 'the next big thing' (a return of SST it seems) that, I anticipate, will do nothing more than keep the company afloat for a while, allow for a little expansion, and then be dropped for 'the next big thing'.
It's too bad the license didn't work out for you guys, and most likely for us too (I say most likely because it may have been something else that flares for a while and then fizzles out after varioys amounts of monies have been spent).
Cheers,
Eisho
Eisho said:
Like A Call to Arms?
Hey all, registered just to throw in my two cents.
For starters, let me say that my investment in BF:Evo doesn't extend very far - all I own is the rulebook. I've kept tabs on BFE and its products, but I had a couple issues with the game so when it came down to dollars, there always was something more important on the shelves.
That said, I can see quite a bit of potential in BFE, particularly in its near-modern feel and solid core rules. So, here's a couple scenarios I can see for the future of the game, the first one being more of my own personal pipedream and the second a more realistic option. So, here we go:
1. The way I would have done it (Option 3, now)
I think that BFE's key strengths are tied to two things: the core rules look really solid, and the near-modern setting which hasn't really been done extensively before in a cohesive "whole game system" way and gives a wider choice for miniatures gamers than "fantasy or sci-fi?".
However, regarding the setting, I feel that tying the game so directly into the real world (nations, equipment, etc) weakened the game in a couple ways. First, it required tying a unit's performance on the tabletop to the capabilities of real-world soldiers & equipment (at least a little), and (IMO) made balancing the game out a much more complicated undertaking. For me, tanks in the game are a good example - tanks are big, expensive (points-wise) and very difficult (if not impossible for some units) to take out. It seemed that in a small-to-medium sized game, each side would have some infantry and one tank, and the one to lose their tank first was in real trouble.
Second, it greatly restricted the options in writing the background, again because you were required to stick to some semblance of the real world. Add in the fact that you want to avoid stepping on anybody's toes and writing really interesting background becomes much more difficult.
So, here's the way I would do it, ignoring any real-world concern like production difficulties, financing, etc:
-Redevelop the background of the game to be based on a fictional, but modern-styled, background world. Similar technology level, but it allows you to create out of the blue, and not be restricted by who'd-really-be-bombing-who and this-equipment-can't-actually-do-that. I myself don't much care if I'm playing "US Marines" instead of "Rysland Commonwealth Marines" or something, as long as they look cool and have an interesting backstory behind why they're doing what they're doing.
-Switch to a 1:72 scale. Combined with the above change, it means that Mongoose has something unique to offer miniature buyers (because their models don't need to look like the same ones in Dragon Armour's catalog) but it leaves the door open for people looking for alternate options.
-Continue the prepaints. The time investment in assembly and painting is one of the biggest barriers to new players in the industry. While other companies may have set the quality bar higher (Rackham with AT-43 comes to mind) Mongoose's existing standards, with a few exceptions, are quite acceptable. I understand that this ship has sailed, but if it hadn't...
-Improve the release schedule. We don't need a giant pile of flashy new toys every month, but when factions don't have critical equipment months after release (MEA tanks, anyone?) it really lowers the quality of the game.
Alright, enough with my wishful thinking. Here's the hardball:
2. Continue supporting the game in its current form (Option 2)
I'll be blunt - Mongoose as a company has a pretty poor reputation for supporting its products. Unfortunatly, the ADD-style pattern of big announcements and poor returns means that many gamers are reluctant to invest in a miniatures game from Mongoose because they can't be sure that it won't slowly choke and be replaced by the Next Big Thing.
That's certainly not to say that Mongoose produces bad games - many of their products (including BF:Evo) show a lot of interesting ideas and promise. What I feel really needs to be corrected is the follow-thru and support.
So, from my perspective, the right thing to do is to begin to break this pattern - by continuing to support the game in its current form, with new models, rules expansions, etc. Retain the same scale, because you've already sold people on the preexisting models and your customers deserve better than to have their loyalty rewarded with invalidating everything they've bought. The issues with the game I outlined above wil just have to be dealt with - too late to change things that big now. It may not be perfect, but BF:Evo has some real potential at its core.
-----
So, there you go. Too bad about the Ubisoft deal, it could have taken the game in an interesting new direction.
Whatever path Mongoose goes with, I'll keep watching - I think BFE could grow into a great game, given the chance. To be honest, every option presented in the poll has merit, as long as Mongoose does something to keep the game alive and reward those who have put their time, effort and money into this game.
Here's hoping.
For starters, let me say that my investment in BF:Evo doesn't extend very far - all I own is the rulebook. I've kept tabs on BFE and its products, but I had a couple issues with the game so when it came down to dollars, there always was something more important on the shelves.
That said, I can see quite a bit of potential in BFE, particularly in its near-modern feel and solid core rules. So, here's a couple scenarios I can see for the future of the game, the first one being more of my own personal pipedream and the second a more realistic option. So, here we go:
1. The way I would have done it (Option 3, now)
I think that BFE's key strengths are tied to two things: the core rules look really solid, and the near-modern setting which hasn't really been done extensively before in a cohesive "whole game system" way and gives a wider choice for miniatures gamers than "fantasy or sci-fi?".
However, regarding the setting, I feel that tying the game so directly into the real world (nations, equipment, etc) weakened the game in a couple ways. First, it required tying a unit's performance on the tabletop to the capabilities of real-world soldiers & equipment (at least a little), and (IMO) made balancing the game out a much more complicated undertaking. For me, tanks in the game are a good example - tanks are big, expensive (points-wise) and very difficult (if not impossible for some units) to take out. It seemed that in a small-to-medium sized game, each side would have some infantry and one tank, and the one to lose their tank first was in real trouble.
Second, it greatly restricted the options in writing the background, again because you were required to stick to some semblance of the real world. Add in the fact that you want to avoid stepping on anybody's toes and writing really interesting background becomes much more difficult.
So, here's the way I would do it, ignoring any real-world concern like production difficulties, financing, etc:
-Redevelop the background of the game to be based on a fictional, but modern-styled, background world. Similar technology level, but it allows you to create out of the blue, and not be restricted by who'd-really-be-bombing-who and this-equipment-can't-actually-do-that. I myself don't much care if I'm playing "US Marines" instead of "Rysland Commonwealth Marines" or something, as long as they look cool and have an interesting backstory behind why they're doing what they're doing.
-Switch to a 1:72 scale. Combined with the above change, it means that Mongoose has something unique to offer miniature buyers (because their models don't need to look like the same ones in Dragon Armour's catalog) but it leaves the door open for people looking for alternate options.
-Continue the prepaints. The time investment in assembly and painting is one of the biggest barriers to new players in the industry. While other companies may have set the quality bar higher (Rackham with AT-43 comes to mind) Mongoose's existing standards, with a few exceptions, are quite acceptable. I understand that this ship has sailed, but if it hadn't...
-Improve the release schedule. We don't need a giant pile of flashy new toys every month, but when factions don't have critical equipment months after release (MEA tanks, anyone?) it really lowers the quality of the game.
Alright, enough with my wishful thinking. Here's the hardball:
2. Continue supporting the game in its current form (Option 2)
I'll be blunt - Mongoose as a company has a pretty poor reputation for supporting its products. Unfortunatly, the ADD-style pattern of big announcements and poor returns means that many gamers are reluctant to invest in a miniatures game from Mongoose because they can't be sure that it won't slowly choke and be replaced by the Next Big Thing.
That's certainly not to say that Mongoose produces bad games - many of their products (including BF:Evo) show a lot of interesting ideas and promise. What I feel really needs to be corrected is the follow-thru and support.
So, from my perspective, the right thing to do is to begin to break this pattern - by continuing to support the game in its current form, with new models, rules expansions, etc. Retain the same scale, because you've already sold people on the preexisting models and your customers deserve better than to have their loyalty rewarded with invalidating everything they've bought. The issues with the game I outlined above wil just have to be dealt with - too late to change things that big now. It may not be perfect, but BF:Evo has some real potential at its core.
-----
So, there you go. Too bad about the Ubisoft deal, it could have taken the game in an interesting new direction.
Whatever path Mongoose goes with, I'll keep watching - I think BFE could grow into a great game, given the chance. To be honest, every option presented in the poll has merit, as long as Mongoose does something to keep the game alive and reward those who have put their time, effort and money into this game.
Here's hoping.
Sgt. Scream
Mongoose
An interesting point to add here would be what I was facing at all the other forums I am member in, that mostly discuss games made by Games Workshop. Some of those forums do have sections for non-GW related games (in the end most tabletop gamers have more than one game they support).
I can remember when it all began. Out of a sudden, everybody and their mother were talking about this game that "looks like the stuff of the Battlefield 2 pc game" and people where really interested in getting their hands on the miniatures. Especially after the first pictures showed up. I was impressed how superb they were looking. From the modelling to the paint-job. Then people heard the news it will all be pre-painted. The gamers really thought it would look like on the pictures.
Then it happend: Pictures occured around the web, showing how the miniatures REALLY looked like if you buy them. Not to mention that MGP was getting nothing else but laughter from the GW fans. With the low quality they said those miniatures have, they wouldn't be tempted to even start or look into the game (which made them miss a good set of rules.)
IMO you guys at Mongoose should have never released the game after that sort of comments around the internet. You should have done a new contract before initially releasing a game that earned nothing else but critic about the BAD MINIATURES (that is important: only the minis were criticised by the people that come ouf of a hobby were painting miniatures is essential. Because of their low quality they never bought it and looked into your rules.)
I know, I know, in the end we are all smarter than before. Do not get me wrong. I sum up what was spoken by people that do not care about prepainted miniatures. Because those guys are used to paint small soldiers in all kind of ways. I for myself thought that after years in the tabletop games I could paint them better, but the point that made me buy them anyway, was the promises that it is getting better (it did a litttle bit) and that my job gives me little time to paint. For the last reason mentioned a lot of people have bought into the game. It was something different as you cannot call it a SciFi game and it offered 'out of the box' games with actually existing military gear.
I had people convinced to look at the game and everybody I did a demo with said the rules are great. They all love the 2 actions thing per turn and the reactions. But when it came to the miniatures they said they look ok as a tabletop standard but do not justify the price. Some GW fans said they would have bought it, if the scale was closer to the other games they played (I think because of the tanks). The whole point is that for a miniatures game the units existing are what makes people buy the game. If the miniatures do not look good, you don't sell anything. If the miniatures do not show up (no new ones), people won't buy the game. If the miniatures are pre-painted only, you lose the people that wanted to paint. If you do it the other way around, you lose the grown-up folks that don't have the time to paint.
But whatever you do MGP, bring out some new miniatures. This is the only way IMO, that will save your game. If not pre-painted yet, than at least release unpainted ones. Drop the whole air unit stuff. 1/72 will be cheaper and having more detail than you could achieve anyway. Do not change the scale for your infantry or vehicles. The closer you go to other company's standards, the more likely people will buy stuff already existing in foreign ranges.
And for god's sake: Work on your support for the people that give you the money for your living. US!
I already boykott another tabletop company that pissed me off with their way of treating fans. I guess you are smarter than that. At least you write in a forum in person, instead of hiding behind the curtains of your offices..
I can remember when it all began. Out of a sudden, everybody and their mother were talking about this game that "looks like the stuff of the Battlefield 2 pc game" and people where really interested in getting their hands on the miniatures. Especially after the first pictures showed up. I was impressed how superb they were looking. From the modelling to the paint-job. Then people heard the news it will all be pre-painted. The gamers really thought it would look like on the pictures.
Then it happend: Pictures occured around the web, showing how the miniatures REALLY looked like if you buy them. Not to mention that MGP was getting nothing else but laughter from the GW fans. With the low quality they said those miniatures have, they wouldn't be tempted to even start or look into the game (which made them miss a good set of rules.)
IMO you guys at Mongoose should have never released the game after that sort of comments around the internet. You should have done a new contract before initially releasing a game that earned nothing else but critic about the BAD MINIATURES (that is important: only the minis were criticised by the people that come ouf of a hobby were painting miniatures is essential. Because of their low quality they never bought it and looked into your rules.)
I know, I know, in the end we are all smarter than before. Do not get me wrong. I sum up what was spoken by people that do not care about prepainted miniatures. Because those guys are used to paint small soldiers in all kind of ways. I for myself thought that after years in the tabletop games I could paint them better, but the point that made me buy them anyway, was the promises that it is getting better (it did a litttle bit) and that my job gives me little time to paint. For the last reason mentioned a lot of people have bought into the game. It was something different as you cannot call it a SciFi game and it offered 'out of the box' games with actually existing military gear.
I had people convinced to look at the game and everybody I did a demo with said the rules are great. They all love the 2 actions thing per turn and the reactions. But when it came to the miniatures they said they look ok as a tabletop standard but do not justify the price. Some GW fans said they would have bought it, if the scale was closer to the other games they played (I think because of the tanks). The whole point is that for a miniatures game the units existing are what makes people buy the game. If the miniatures do not look good, you don't sell anything. If the miniatures do not show up (no new ones), people won't buy the game. If the miniatures are pre-painted only, you lose the people that wanted to paint. If you do it the other way around, you lose the grown-up folks that don't have the time to paint.
But whatever you do MGP, bring out some new miniatures. This is the only way IMO, that will save your game. If not pre-painted yet, than at least release unpainted ones. Drop the whole air unit stuff. 1/72 will be cheaper and having more detail than you could achieve anyway. Do not change the scale for your infantry or vehicles. The closer you go to other company's standards, the more likely people will buy stuff already existing in foreign ranges.
And for god's sake: Work on your support for the people that give you the money for your living. US!
I already boykott another tabletop company that pissed me off with their way of treating fans. I guess you are smarter than that. At least you write in a forum in person, instead of hiding behind the curtains of your offices..
