The Future of BF Evo - and a Poll. . .
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Slider said:
That isn't lost on us, and we still very much believe they are the wave of the future. However, the following factors need to be addressed;
1. Price.
2. Poseability (linked to price).
3. Quality of painting.
We will continue to hammer away at all three and, when we solve them, you'll know about it. However, we have concerns on all three at this time.
Col_stone
Mongoose
xeoran said:
There is also the scale, if mongoose sticks to the 1/65 then 1/56 vehicles will prolly look too big, and Co.B is an american company, considering all Customs and shipping fees i think there's room for 2 strykers on the market,
just how many Tigers are there for WW2
Col_stone said:There is also the scale, if mongoose sticks to the 1/65 then 1/56 vehicles will prolly look too big, and Co.B is an american company, considering all Customs and shipping fees i think there's room for 2 strykers on the market,
just how many Tigers are there for WW2
Heh, absolutely. Though it would still be nice if MGP moved to a real scale rather than using one that isn't compatible with anything.
Screw Tigers, where's my RCW Armoured Train. Broom, Broom. Boom, Boom. :twisted:
dsfrankevo
Mongoose
At least the wait is over - not surprised & don't expect much to come from this;
- but given a voice - I say -
I'd like to see prepainted Evo minis compatible w/ SST - AT-43 - 40K
- not gonna mention the 'S' word - Even if that makes my current "MG BF Evo" stuff too small for future use
Regardless of the outcome here - I will still strongly support the game, if not Mongoose, on EvoCommand.com
- but given a voice - I say -
I'd like to see prepainted Evo minis compatible w/ SST - AT-43 - 40K
- not gonna mention the 'S' word - Even if that makes my current "MG BF Evo" stuff too small for future use
Regardless of the outcome here - I will still strongly support the game, if not Mongoose, on EvoCommand.com
lastbesthope
Mongoose
I'm going to vote number 2 because it's closest to what I want.
I want to be able to use the models I've got. If any changes are made I want the old stuff to be compatible, and I mean COMPATIBLE Matthew, not B5 RPG 1E stuff will be compatible in 2E compatible, I mean actually compatible.
Though since most of it is the minis I don't see how you can make it incompatible unless you make us fork out for replacement unit cards AND change the scale rather than put them up as pdfs and keep the scale the same.
I like the game as was and don't see any great need to change it too much, carry on where you left off (unpainted if need be, and ocming from me that shows my level of desperation) Mongoose and give us some Lynxes so my SAS can reenact the end of "Who Dares Wins"
LBH
I want to be able to use the models I've got. If any changes are made I want the old stuff to be compatible, and I mean COMPATIBLE Matthew, not B5 RPG 1E stuff will be compatible in 2E compatible, I mean actually compatible.
Though since most of it is the minis I don't see how you can make it incompatible unless you make us fork out for replacement unit cards AND change the scale rather than put them up as pdfs and keep the scale the same.
I like the game as was and don't see any great need to change it too much, carry on where you left off (unpainted if need be, and ocming from me that shows my level of desperation) Mongoose and give us some Lynxes so my SAS can reenact the end of "Who Dares Wins"
LBH
Armchair_Marine
Mongoose
I also voted for 2 only because it's closest to what I would like for the game - New models (unpainted and metal if need be just give us the damn things!) BUT I would like to keep the current near future setting.
But the really REALLY important thing here to keep the game alive is models and only you can give them to us Matt. Not just any models, but good decent quality models representing the soldier of the near future.
And one other thing, how long before you make any decision based on our decisions? Will 2008 be another year without any new BF EVO products?
But the really REALLY important thing here to keep the game alive is models and only you can give them to us Matt. Not just any models, but good decent quality models representing the soldier of the near future.
And one other thing, how long before you make any decision based on our decisions? Will 2008 be another year without any new BF EVO products?
Armchair_Marine
Mongoose
SnowDog said:
I would sooo F*ing support this!
Armchair_Marine
Mongoose
msprange said:
Are you still going to make rules like these but for BF EVO units in general?
Armchair_Marine
Mongoose
msprange said:
Does this mean anything to do with the Tom Clancy Franchise is definately no longer a possiblity?
4. Other
[*]Step the existing cards on EvoCommand up a bit and playtest/clarify the core units in armies. Stick with the model of D6/D10 on damages. In the grand scheme of things there is not massive enough difference in units to do multiple die types. Massive work would need to be done to proactively “rank” and organize a list of all current vehicles that would potentially be produced for the game, possibly by a paid staff member along with committee from EvoCommand.com. Stats would then need to be developed according to the “ranks” and capabilities of the units to try to keep the factions more balanced. By organizing the core stats by category, the development of sub-unit abilities/bonuses can be done with greater balance.
[*]Miniatures would be developed by Mongoose with a core set to make the game viable akin to what has been produced thus far via pre-paints. Additional units would based on popularity and evaluation of availability in alternate product lines.
[*]Assign a person/committee from the fan-base to develop paper-token proxies of all units available akin to VaS. These items would be available for play of units for which compatible minis do not exist. Make these available either for free or for a nominal PDF fee of $5 or less. This allows those unwilling to invest in a new game or unable to afford the investment to still play the game and will increase potential sales of the core rules and boost sales for Mongoose.
[*]The rulebook should contain only rules to make it more “timeless” and avoid it becoming dated due to new unit development. The existing rules should be redone to include existing fan-based rules and evaluating the multiple “loopholes” in the existing book. The Core Rules would maintain a “generic” format to allow them to be adapted to any theatre/time-setting. The core rules would be posted in it’s entirety a black and white for open evaluation and fan input for 3-6 months. At which point they would be removed from public domain and compiled into a formal printed rulebook with art/pictures.
[*]All unit stats would be available as free downloads with the potential for a printed book version after the game has been in existence at least 18-24 months. The delay is needed to work out all details, typos, errors and fully flesh out the armies. A possible supplemental book of campaigns/scenarios/fluff could be an option later.
[*]An OGL would be extended to allow fans to develop and submit pdf content for alternate settings (that don’t tread on copyright) and subsystems such as Evo: SpecOps.
[*]Allow fan input and development but make the ultimate decisions via MP. If fans don’t like it they will adapt like they already have.
Summary Recap:
Mongoose would:
-Produce & sell a new core rulebook with an OGL setup
-Produce core infantry and resin/metal miniatures of vehicle units and subsequent releases would be those not readily available by other companies but are high demand units.
-Produce formal pdfs of stats submitted by fans under an OGL agreement.
Fans led by EvoCommand:
-Participate in rules development/clarifications/suggestions
-Compile the comprehensive list of unit suggestions and do further in-depth research and develop the initial unit ranking and core stats in a series of spreadsheets.
-Will serve as a test-bed facility and play-testing committee. Active leadership will organize and schedule weekly/bi-weekly/monthly assignments to play a specific army and evaluate units with in it.
- Switch to version of the VaS scale free model for the rules. Recommend 28mm or 1/72, your call. Existing minis are more compatible with 1/72 but 28mm is more popular and proxies are more readily available. I cannot exactly say which scale Mongoose should use to develop their existing line, but my gut says 1/72. It’s a more open market from a business perspective and would facilitate greater sales. I would stick with 1/64 only if the number of new minis produced by MP would HONESTLY and REALISTICALLY be able to maintain a rate of 4-8 per month. If not, switching to 1/72 scale would make the game more viable. The core rules provide a chart of simple multipliers/mods to ranges, fire zones, etc to deal with scale differences if so desired.
- Stick with the current era, it’s something people can relate to easily. Moving to the future allows more leeway for error and interpretation and avoids the feuds that happened at times for the lack of reality. However, I think more research and input from fans will easily resolve those issues. Pushing the game to far into the future will prevent access to acceptable minis regardless of the scale. While Mongoose should develop its own line of minis, allowing access to other lines will draw in a larger fan-base for the game itself and may result in the sale of MP minis for use in other games.
- Remove the concepts of the combined faction armies by regional association (EFTF, MEA). That works for alternate reality video games, but not so much with a real-world semi-simulation. Instead, embrace insanity and the semi-deluded ideals of grandeur. Switch to doing things akin to Pieta and do the ToEs of standard armies around the world now and switch to a Battlefield Evo: Global Conflict. Take an apocalyptic type approach with multiple conflicts in a WWIII mass chaos type war. Presents a highly volatile situation in which chaos has erupted in multiple fronts rather than main two of WWII. Conflicts in Korea, Middle East, China, India, Europe, etc. Stretch the superpowers of the world to the max on resources to serve as a balance with the smaller less organized armies of 3rd world countries. This keeps largely with BF:Evo but allows for a the personable variety players are seeking. Infantry minis produced can be altered to be “semi-generic” in uniform with the paint jobs and weapons/backpacks assigned to them determining their true faction.
- Each army should have something to make them unique via a “faction bonus” such as the USMC’s ability to reroll deployment. Major factions may have options for various subfactions.
[*]Step the existing cards on EvoCommand up a bit and playtest/clarify the core units in armies. Stick with the model of D6/D10 on damages. In the grand scheme of things there is not massive enough difference in units to do multiple die types. Massive work would need to be done to proactively “rank” and organize a list of all current vehicles that would potentially be produced for the game, possibly by a paid staff member along with committee from EvoCommand.com. Stats would then need to be developed according to the “ranks” and capabilities of the units to try to keep the factions more balanced. By organizing the core stats by category, the development of sub-unit abilities/bonuses can be done with greater balance.
[*]Miniatures would be developed by Mongoose with a core set to make the game viable akin to what has been produced thus far via pre-paints. Additional units would based on popularity and evaluation of availability in alternate product lines.
[*]Assign a person/committee from the fan-base to develop paper-token proxies of all units available akin to VaS. These items would be available for play of units for which compatible minis do not exist. Make these available either for free or for a nominal PDF fee of $5 or less. This allows those unwilling to invest in a new game or unable to afford the investment to still play the game and will increase potential sales of the core rules and boost sales for Mongoose.
[*]The rulebook should contain only rules to make it more “timeless” and avoid it becoming dated due to new unit development. The existing rules should be redone to include existing fan-based rules and evaluating the multiple “loopholes” in the existing book. The Core Rules would maintain a “generic” format to allow them to be adapted to any theatre/time-setting. The core rules would be posted in it’s entirety a black and white for open evaluation and fan input for 3-6 months. At which point they would be removed from public domain and compiled into a formal printed rulebook with art/pictures.
[*]All unit stats would be available as free downloads with the potential for a printed book version after the game has been in existence at least 18-24 months. The delay is needed to work out all details, typos, errors and fully flesh out the armies. A possible supplemental book of campaigns/scenarios/fluff could be an option later.
[*]An OGL would be extended to allow fans to develop and submit pdf content for alternate settings (that don’t tread on copyright) and subsystems such as Evo: SpecOps.
[*]Allow fan input and development but make the ultimate decisions via MP. If fans don’t like it they will adapt like they already have.
Summary Recap:
Mongoose would:
-Produce & sell a new core rulebook with an OGL setup
-Produce core infantry and resin/metal miniatures of vehicle units and subsequent releases would be those not readily available by other companies but are high demand units.
-Produce formal pdfs of stats submitted by fans under an OGL agreement.
Fans led by EvoCommand:
-Participate in rules development/clarifications/suggestions
-Compile the comprehensive list of unit suggestions and do further in-depth research and develop the initial unit ranking and core stats in a series of spreadsheets.
-Will serve as a test-bed facility and play-testing committee. Active leadership will organize and schedule weekly/bi-weekly/monthly assignments to play a specific army and evaluate units with in it.
shotgun-toting chipmunk
Mongoose
This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me.
Some thoughts on where I'm coming from:
I love the near-modern warfare concept behind BF:Evo. The thought of playing with equipment that is either currently in production or just a few years away is what brought me into this game.
I love the rules. They are quick to learn yet in-depth, providing for a surprisingly wide array of realistic tactical options and considerations. A few things were a little quirky and could stand for some revision (ie smoke rules and ADS) but overall they are a great all-encompassing ruleset that doesn't bog down with details. Best of all is the utilization of unit cards so that players don't have to constantly flip through books throughout a game.
I love the models. Having “true 28mm” figures with realistic proportions is quite refreshing in a market where everybody wants to make everything bigger and beefier. As I've said before, there is not a single other company who makes modern or near-modern miniatures I actually like. (Kriegspiel came close, but still not nearly as good.) Prepainted is/was a huge selling point, and further fueled my enthusiasm. Still, I understand the issues at hand with them, and can patiently wait. Also, I really like the fact that they are plastic. Not only are they lighter and easier to transport, but they are much easier to customize than metal miniatures.
My biggest gripe was the lack of background material. I somewhat understand the concern on potentially upsetting people (national pride and what-not) but at the same time good background material is what moves any game to the so-called next level.
Some observations based on what I've seen at Evocommand:
There is no doubt that Evocommand is a fantastic resource, and a very active community. Several people have done a lot to expand on the game for their own enjoyment and that of others. It is still a community, so not everybody feels the same way on everything. Several players like the idea of more in-depth rules, while others prefer the simplicity offered by the existing rules. Some like to use MGP stats, while others prefer proxies with other armies and modified units. That diversity is great, and gives a lot of insight and options for games played "at home." There are some in the community that seem to feel that MGP basically dropped the game and left it up to them to carry on the torch, so to speak. I disagree with this view, but I certainly feel that the Evocommand community did in fact help keep the fire of this game alive.
Some thoughts on Option 1:
At first, this sounds kind of neat. Letting the fans have a say in the game and make it whatever they want. However, completely turning the game over has problems. For one thing, it smacks of abandonment. If the company gives the game to the players, and no longer produces models, what incentive could there possibly be for supporting it? Second, it opens up the potential for “too many chiefs syndrome.” Most, if not all, people have different ideas of what the ideal game is, and such disagreement would make it difficult to come to a consensus on what the actual game really is. Sure, this works fine for home games and the like, but will inevitably cause problems with tournaments, conventions, etc. There needs to be somebody at the helm of this ship if it’s going to succeed.
Some thoughts on Options 2 and 3:
To be honest these two sound rather similar. It sounds like Option 3 is saying to scrap BF:Evo for a completely new setting, with all new units and possibly redoing the rules. This does not sound good. Option 2 sounds like a less drastic version, keeping the rules with a few small tweaks and changing the background. This doesn’t sound terrible, as the rules really don’t need much tweaking beyond a few things in the Advanced Rulebook and there isn’t really much background to speak of. However, the important thing in my mind is to keep true the original intent: A game of near-modern combat. I don’t mind supposition, (this game contains plenty as it is) but let’s not go overboard. I want to be able to recognize this as a feasible near-future world. Making the Abrams the equivalent of a Chieftain does not sound particularly enjoyable. At that point we may as well just drop the post-modern designation and call it near-term science fiction. Of course, that isn’t to say that as time goes on we can’t go ahead and present new ideas, especially as new real-world developments occur.
At last, my thoughts on a good direction for the game:
Keep the game going in the current direction, but expand on it. Keep the setting, but create some actual background material. Create a story to put us ten, fifteen, twenty years in the future, basically something to set the stage for the game. I’d prefer an “alternate history” to “no history.” Continue the story with worldwide campaigns run by the Mongoose Infantry and possibly some supplements (ie campaign books). I’ve got plenty ideas to get things started if there’s any interest. Continue support with Signs and Portents, including unit cards, ideas for advanced rules, one-shot scenarios, and more. The worldwide campaign should also be presented in Signs and Portents (ie results, etc.). Also, with a good background, MGP always has the option to expand into a BF:Evo RPG!
Give us miniatures! I understand they can’t be prepainted yet, but keep the same scale, small bases, and true-to-life proportions of the current line. Provide troops, vehicles, and aircraft. MGP has already released most of the units that other companies also make; at this point most if not all new releases are unique and not available anywhere else.
I think something along the lines of an OGL in addition to the above is good as well. Allow players to create and potentially publish their own unit cards, factions, and supplemental rules. Just think of the success with the Quintessential Series: taking an established universe and giving the players the option to expand and go even more in-depth. I’d even say go one step further, giving really good projects the Flaming Cobra treatment. Just remember that these are additional options for home games. If it’s not in a Mongoose publication or Signs and Portents, don’t expect to see it in a sanctioned tournament or the worldwide campaign. Also, players would be able to publish projects MGP might not have the time or desire to invest in, such as other settings (ie Vietnam: Evolution)
The Bottom Line:
I love the current game. I see no need to scrap it or completely change course. Expand on the great product MGP has, give it better support than ever before, and keep it running strong!
Some thoughts on where I'm coming from:
I love the near-modern warfare concept behind BF:Evo. The thought of playing with equipment that is either currently in production or just a few years away is what brought me into this game.
I love the rules. They are quick to learn yet in-depth, providing for a surprisingly wide array of realistic tactical options and considerations. A few things were a little quirky and could stand for some revision (ie smoke rules and ADS) but overall they are a great all-encompassing ruleset that doesn't bog down with details. Best of all is the utilization of unit cards so that players don't have to constantly flip through books throughout a game.
I love the models. Having “true 28mm” figures with realistic proportions is quite refreshing in a market where everybody wants to make everything bigger and beefier. As I've said before, there is not a single other company who makes modern or near-modern miniatures I actually like. (Kriegspiel came close, but still not nearly as good.) Prepainted is/was a huge selling point, and further fueled my enthusiasm. Still, I understand the issues at hand with them, and can patiently wait. Also, I really like the fact that they are plastic. Not only are they lighter and easier to transport, but they are much easier to customize than metal miniatures.
My biggest gripe was the lack of background material. I somewhat understand the concern on potentially upsetting people (national pride and what-not) but at the same time good background material is what moves any game to the so-called next level.
Some observations based on what I've seen at Evocommand:
There is no doubt that Evocommand is a fantastic resource, and a very active community. Several people have done a lot to expand on the game for their own enjoyment and that of others. It is still a community, so not everybody feels the same way on everything. Several players like the idea of more in-depth rules, while others prefer the simplicity offered by the existing rules. Some like to use MGP stats, while others prefer proxies with other armies and modified units. That diversity is great, and gives a lot of insight and options for games played "at home." There are some in the community that seem to feel that MGP basically dropped the game and left it up to them to carry on the torch, so to speak. I disagree with this view, but I certainly feel that the Evocommand community did in fact help keep the fire of this game alive.
Some thoughts on Option 1:
At first, this sounds kind of neat. Letting the fans have a say in the game and make it whatever they want. However, completely turning the game over has problems. For one thing, it smacks of abandonment. If the company gives the game to the players, and no longer produces models, what incentive could there possibly be for supporting it? Second, it opens up the potential for “too many chiefs syndrome.” Most, if not all, people have different ideas of what the ideal game is, and such disagreement would make it difficult to come to a consensus on what the actual game really is. Sure, this works fine for home games and the like, but will inevitably cause problems with tournaments, conventions, etc. There needs to be somebody at the helm of this ship if it’s going to succeed.
Some thoughts on Options 2 and 3:
To be honest these two sound rather similar. It sounds like Option 3 is saying to scrap BF:Evo for a completely new setting, with all new units and possibly redoing the rules. This does not sound good. Option 2 sounds like a less drastic version, keeping the rules with a few small tweaks and changing the background. This doesn’t sound terrible, as the rules really don’t need much tweaking beyond a few things in the Advanced Rulebook and there isn’t really much background to speak of. However, the important thing in my mind is to keep true the original intent: A game of near-modern combat. I don’t mind supposition, (this game contains plenty as it is) but let’s not go overboard. I want to be able to recognize this as a feasible near-future world. Making the Abrams the equivalent of a Chieftain does not sound particularly enjoyable. At that point we may as well just drop the post-modern designation and call it near-term science fiction. Of course, that isn’t to say that as time goes on we can’t go ahead and present new ideas, especially as new real-world developments occur.
At last, my thoughts on a good direction for the game:
Keep the game going in the current direction, but expand on it. Keep the setting, but create some actual background material. Create a story to put us ten, fifteen, twenty years in the future, basically something to set the stage for the game. I’d prefer an “alternate history” to “no history.” Continue the story with worldwide campaigns run by the Mongoose Infantry and possibly some supplements (ie campaign books). I’ve got plenty ideas to get things started if there’s any interest. Continue support with Signs and Portents, including unit cards, ideas for advanced rules, one-shot scenarios, and more. The worldwide campaign should also be presented in Signs and Portents (ie results, etc.). Also, with a good background, MGP always has the option to expand into a BF:Evo RPG!
Give us miniatures! I understand they can’t be prepainted yet, but keep the same scale, small bases, and true-to-life proportions of the current line. Provide troops, vehicles, and aircraft. MGP has already released most of the units that other companies also make; at this point most if not all new releases are unique and not available anywhere else.
I think something along the lines of an OGL in addition to the above is good as well. Allow players to create and potentially publish their own unit cards, factions, and supplemental rules. Just think of the success with the Quintessential Series: taking an established universe and giving the players the option to expand and go even more in-depth. I’d even say go one step further, giving really good projects the Flaming Cobra treatment. Just remember that these are additional options for home games. If it’s not in a Mongoose publication or Signs and Portents, don’t expect to see it in a sanctioned tournament or the worldwide campaign. Also, players would be able to publish projects MGP might not have the time or desire to invest in, such as other settings (ie Vietnam: Evolution)
The Bottom Line:
I love the current game. I see no need to scrap it or completely change course. Expand on the great product MGP has, give it better support than ever before, and keep it running strong!
Sgt. Scream
Mongoose
@Paladin
You pretty much added what needs to be said from the guys at Evocommand that do cards or alternative settings based on MGP brilliant rules set. I would like to see Mongoose publishing our work through their S&P magazine and also use our knowledge/interest for playtesting.
I really would like to see my ideas and those from the rest of the evo-veterans finding their way into some kind of MGP-approved game setting (meaning: become official).
I like the OGL idea.
You pretty much added what needs to be said from the guys at Evocommand that do cards or alternative settings based on MGP brilliant rules set. I would like to see Mongoose publishing our work through their S&P magazine and also use our knowledge/interest for playtesting.
I really would like to see my ideas and those from the rest of the evo-veterans finding their way into some kind of MGP-approved game setting (meaning: become official).
I like the OGL idea.
My vote:
1. bring out the minis unpainted, metal/plastic doesn't matter - bringing down the cost would help convert more people to the game. Ideally keep the pre-paints too (at least as an easy 'in' to the game).
2. Make the rules OGL, as suggested above, and diversify - Evo core rules and Evo setting books.
3. If you're going to stick with an oddball scale, stuff has got to come out at a decent pace.
4. RPG tie-in with full support for using minis.
5. A follow on to 3 & 4 - unusual units - female troops and officers for the appropriate armies, "security contractors" (a la Blackwater, Aegis, Armour Group etc), news crews, civilians - and make a full RPG capable set up with it. Also the special units/regiments i.e. Gurkhas, US Rangers etc.
6. Again, as suggested - ditch the combined nations lists and produce lists for each nation.
7. Global warfare = better than in a fictional mid eastern country. The background could be something like - US missile shield goes into orbit - renders ICBM's useless. Cue traditional ground warfare again (removes the element of fear about being nuked).
Just my 2 pence.
edit: Also, going for core rulebook and settings allows you to make rulebooks (the real strength of MGP, IMNSHO) for other times/places like Vietnam without having the problem of needing to make minis for them.
1. bring out the minis unpainted, metal/plastic doesn't matter - bringing down the cost would help convert more people to the game. Ideally keep the pre-paints too (at least as an easy 'in' to the game).
2. Make the rules OGL, as suggested above, and diversify - Evo core rules and Evo setting books.
3. If you're going to stick with an oddball scale, stuff has got to come out at a decent pace.
4. RPG tie-in with full support for using minis.
5. A follow on to 3 & 4 - unusual units - female troops and officers for the appropriate armies, "security contractors" (a la Blackwater, Aegis, Armour Group etc), news crews, civilians - and make a full RPG capable set up with it. Also the special units/regiments i.e. Gurkhas, US Rangers etc.
6. Again, as suggested - ditch the combined nations lists and produce lists for each nation.
7. Global warfare = better than in a fictional mid eastern country. The background could be something like - US missile shield goes into orbit - renders ICBM's useless. Cue traditional ground warfare again (removes the element of fear about being nuked).
Just my 2 pence.
edit: Also, going for core rulebook and settings allows you to make rulebooks (the real strength of MGP, IMNSHO) for other times/places like Vietnam without having the problem of needing to make minis for them.
