The Denn'Bok and the exotic weapon feat

Tegman

Mongoose
Hi,
one of my players want to make a Ranger. His character is a minbari from the warrior class.

In the Ranger PrC it says that at lvl 1 the ranger receives the ranger robe etc and a Denn'bok. But nowhere (what I have seen) does it say that the ranger gets the feat to use the Denn'bok (here I'm thinking, "what if a human wants to be a ranger too?"). I presume that minbari knows how to use the Denn'bok, since it's a weapon that they have been used for a long time, according to the Minbari Federation book (IIRC).

However, under the prerequisits for the Denn'bok master PrC, the character must have the feat 'Exoctic weapon Denn'bok', but I can't find it in the book that it's a must have for the ranger, so they are given a weapon that they aren't forced to learn to use (but I suspect they are given training in it, it just hasn't been written down), but if they want to become a Denn'bok master they must get the exotic feat for it.

So, is the Denn'bok?
1. An exotic weapon for everyone, even minbari.
2. An exotic weapon for everyone, except the warrior cast.
3. An exotic weapon for everyone, except the minbari.
3. An exotic weapon for everyone, but Rangers receive it for free, no matter the race.
4. A combination of the above.

I would really like an answer to this one, so we'll know how to proceed.

Thanks.
 
It's an exotic weapon for everyone, full stop.

There's no particular "Exotic Weapon Denn'bok" feat, it's merely the choice weapon for the "Exotic Weapon" feat.

There are several ways to become a Ranger in the game (Outlined in the Season 3, Minbari and Rangers fact books) and some of those do give you the Denn'bok Exotic Weapon proficency feat.
 
If I understand your reply correct, there is a way to get the Denn'bok feat for free by choosing a class/PrC?

If not, then my player's character must use a generic feat to learn it. He won't be glad then, since he has already chosen his feats and it's difficult to remove once you have taken something :) But I told him to hold one free until I got an answer :)
 
ooh, ohh, i can comment on this one!!

it states in the rangers book i think that without the feat you dont take -4's, you just treat it like a club, although, in all honesty, i think most minbari should get it as a free feat, especially as both Warrior and religious cast are 'supposedly' trained in it at a young age... the 'Den'bok' (or That ranger staff thingyas my GM calls it) is one of those weapons that if nothing else is down to the individual GM to decide if it needs a feat for minbari, mine said i need one, although, even as a club its lethal (i've used it 5 times and critted on each of them... splattered Centauri ^_^)
 
That's true, I have seen that it can be used as a club if untrained. I have decided just like you wrote, that Minbari get the feat for free, at least warrior caste (I didn't think about the religious caste :) ). I've also decided to let it be a feat all Rangers get at level 1 (read in the book: To Dream in the City of Sorrows, that all rangers train with the Denn'Bok, so I figured they learned how to use it there).
 
Tegman said:
feat all Rangers get at level 1 (read in the book: To Dream in the City of Sorrows, that all rangers train with the Denn'Bok, so I figured they learned how to use it there).

Not to mention that in Legend of the Rangers you see them training with the things all over the dang place at the beginning of the movie. It seems to be one of the first things young rangers are taught.
 
KaosDevice, it seems like we have crushing evidence and this should now be considered official :D

All hail to KaosDevice and Tegman :wink:
 
KaosDevice said:
Not to mention that in Legend of the Rangers you see them training with the things all over the dang place at the beginning of the movie. It seems to be one of the first things young rangers are taught.

Though none of those are trainee rangers (just experienced rangers keeping in practice), and they weren't using Den'Boks either but quarterstaffs.
 
That's something I find strange too, the Denn'Bok is a staff, but it seems like it takes a feat to know how to extract it...

I mean, a staff is a staff, even if one can be made very small. If the Denn'Bok is an exotic weapon, then the ordinary staff should be one too. If not, then please explain to me what the difference is.

"If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck. It is a duck."
 
Tegman said:
That's something I find strange too, the Denn'Bok is a staff, but it seems like it takes a feat to know how to extract it...

I mean, a staff is a staff, even if one can be made very small. If the Denn'Bok is an exotic weapon, then the ordinary staff should be one too. If not, then please explain to me what the difference is.

"If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck. It is a duck."

But a yellow plastic duck isn't the same as a plush stuffed one ;)

I suspect, that the weighting of a Den'Bok may be very different - it probably doesn't have a uniform density, also it appears to be quite light (given how easily it is thrown around in compressed form), which is not a normal characteristic of a quarterstaff.

I suspect, at best you can use it as a quarterstaff, and you need the Den'Bok exotic weapon feat to get all the "Den'Bok"iness out of it.

But quaterstaff should probably be an exotic weapon come that time period as well (it was unusual that Sinclair had (and demonstrated) proficiency in it, and outside the Anla'Shok and hangers on the only person we saw using it with any expertise was the True Seeker guy (can't remember the character name) played by David Warner).
 
That is true, most medieval weapons should be exotic since noone train in their use. But IIRC, sinclar said in the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrow", that it was common among officiers to train in the use of staff :)

i find this a little odd, I would think they would train some kind of martial arts (Improved unarmed combat feat), but instead they choose the staff. But maybe the writer thought staff would sound cooler than some martial arts :wink:

Anyway, I've made houserule about it, but it's always interesting to know why some things are the way the are :)
 
frobisher said:
Though none of those are trainee rangers (just experienced rangers keeping in practice), and they weren't using Den'Boks either but quarterstaffs.


Hmm, that raises the whole Denn'bok vs. quarterstaff question you guys were discussing...

You sure they were all experienced? The trainee rangers (the two Minbari guys) when hunting down the gangsters were using denn'boks pretty effectively.
 
KaosDevice said:
You sure they were all experienced? The trainee rangers (the two Minbari guys) when hunting down the gangsters were using denn'boks pretty effectively.

Ah, but that wasn't "Legends of the Rangers" ;)

Not all Rangers come up the same way remember... There was a character (though not actor) in common between "Learning Curve" and LotR - Tannier the Warrior Caste trainee, and it's my impression that he was trained on Den'Bok before he became Anla'Shok.

But let's face it, you join the Rangers the first thing you want to do is play about with the Den'Bok 'cos it's kewl. Just because pretty much every Ranger has some skill with it doesn't mean that it's compulsary... Hell, I'd blow a feat on it first chance I got...
 
According to 'The Rangers', the denn'bok is effectively a quarterstaff. Anything a denn'bok wielder can accomplish with a denn'bok should be possible with a stick of similar size. It is the skill of the wielder that controls how deadly the weapon can be. The main thing that makes the denn'bok special is that it is collapsible. In fact, the rulebook actually calls it a 'collapsible quarterstaff.' Everything else is essentially fluff.

As far as Ranger proficiency is concerned, you don't need house rules. All you have to do to is turn to page 104 in your Ranger textbooks and direct your attention to the heading 'Places Unseen.' You'll find it in the second column. About halfway through the paragraph is the sentence: 'At the 1st level of the Anla'Shok Ranger prestige class, a character receives the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (denn'bok) and Improved Unarmed Strike feats for free to reflect their enhanced talents in combat.'

For the ISA Ranger, turn to page 109, first column, 'Garb of Honour' heading near the top of the page, last sentence of the first paragraph: '- they receive the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (denn'bok) feat for free.'

I hope that clears up any confusion.
 
frobisher said:
Not all Rangers come up the same way remember... There was a character (though not actor) in common between "Learning Curve" and LotR - Tannier the Warrior Caste trainee, and it's my impression that he was trained on Den'Bok before he became Anla'Shok.

I couldn't remember the name of the episode. grrr, unlike me. Anyway, it seemed as if the Religious cast guy held his one with the big metal stick as well.

frobisher said:
But let's face it, you join the Rangers the first thing you want to do is play about with the Den'Bok 'cos it's kewl. Just because pretty much every Ranger has some skill with it doesn't mean that it's compulsary... Hell, I'd blow a feat on it first chance I got...

It may just be me but I'd give any Ranger the feat for free. Also, I'd give people that were proficient with the quarterstaff less of a minus for using a Den'bok with out training and vice versa just because I could understand the logic of it any other way.
 
Tegman said:
KaosDevice, it seems like we have crushing evidence and this should now be considered official :D

Easy boy!

frobisher said:
I suspect, that the weighting of a Den'Bok may be very different - it probably doesn't have a uniform density, also it appears to be quite light (given how easily it is thrown around in compressed form), which is not a normal characteristic of a quarterstaff.

Quite correct, the weighting is very different. It is much lighter so can be wielded one handed much more effectively than a quarterstaff, as well as being stronger.

Tegman said:
i find this a little odd, I would think they would train some kind of martial arts (Improved unarmed combat feat), but instead they choose the staff. But maybe the writer thought staff would sound cooler than some martial arts :wink:

Well we know non Warrior Minbari can study some form of martial arts, I mean you've seen Lennier's pointy fngers stance. The Denn'Bok may be a metaphor for the Rangers, hence it is theior iconic weapon.

KaosDevice said:
You sure they were all experienced? The trainee rangers (the two Minbari guys) when hunting down the gangsters were using denn'boks pretty effectively.

Some trainees are trained early, the episode is "Learning Curve" The Minbari teacher admits to Delenn that he taught the beat up trainee a little earlier than is normal, and a little better.


KaosDevice said:
I couldn't remember the name of the episode. grrr, unlike me. Anyway, it seemed as if the Religious cast guy held his one with the big metal stick as well.

"Learning Curve" Episode 5 Season 5


LBH
(Getting RSI from this post alone!)
 
Ross O'Gallagher said:
As far as Ranger proficiency is concerned, you don't need house rules. All you have to do to is turn to page 104 in your Ranger textbooks and direct your attention to the heading 'Places Unseen.' You'll find it in the second column. About halfway through the paragraph is the sentence: 'At the 1st level of the Anla'Shok Ranger prestige class, a character receives the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (denn'bok) and Improved Unarmed Strike feats for free to reflect their enhanced talents in combat.'

For the ISA Ranger, turn to page 109, first column, 'Garb of Honour' heading near the top of the page, last sentence of the first paragraph: '- they receive the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (denn'bok) feat for free.'

I hope that clears up any confusion.

Thanks, I missed that information. That will make my ranger player very happy :)

lastbesthope wrote:
Tegman wrote:
i find this a little odd, I would think they would train some kind of martial arts (Improved unarmed combat feat), but instead they choose the staff. But maybe the writer thought staff would sound cooler than some martial arts.



Well we know non Warrior Minbari can study some form of martial arts, I mean you've seen Lennier's pointy fngers stance. The Denn'Bok may be a metaphor for the Rangers, hence it is theior iconic weapon.

What I meant was that EF-personel trained with staff, not minbari. Sinclair said in the book that he, and others, trained with staff during his time in EF and that he was not unfamiliar with the staff as a weapon.
 
Tegman said:
What I meant was that EF-personel trained with staff, not minbari. Sinclair said in the book that he, and others, trained with staff during his time in EF and that he was not unfamiliar with the staff as a weapon.

It would make sense that every military would have some form stick (like escrima) or staff fighting, I mean you can find a stick or a mop handle just about anywhere.
 
Tegman said:
That's true, I have seen that it can be used as a club if untrained. I have decided just like you wrote, that Minbari get the feat for free, at least warrior caste (I didn't think about the religious caste :) ). I've also decided to let it be a feat all Rangers get at level 1 (read in the book: To Dream in the City of Sorrows, that all rangers train with the Denn'Bok, so I figured they learned how to use it there).

Although I'm sure that the issue is decided by now, for the record I don't think that the Denn'bok should be an exotic weapon for warrior caste Minbari since it is a common martial weapon for them to be taught with. I do think that it should be an exotic weapon for all other Minbari and other races.

I would still make an ISA ranger take the feat unless he was a warrior caste Minbari.
 
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