The Black eagle
- Thread starter Mr Evil
- Start date
Ah, the joys of reading this thread...OK:
1. During the Cold War Russia was actually, in terms of 'high' science, generally ahead of the West. Where they lost was that their production capabilities were not as good as their high science, meaning little of the neat stuff they could have built was built.
2. Russia has been an agressor many, many times. As have all nation states. Reading a history book of the 20th Century should give you all the information available. Note by the way thast Russia too was prepared for a 1946 offensive against thre western allies and ruthlessly shot down western planes entering 'their' territory in '45-6.
3. Governments keep secrets, lots of them. Some are very important but most aren't. There are very few actual government conspiracies (Just read Fortean Times). Most people under the Offical Secrets Act are for trivial knowledge, in fact I'm under the Norwegian Governments equivalent. Its for something very trivial that for obvious reasons I won't say a word about. (I am allowed to say I'm under it though). Most governments are too busy thinking about getting elected to worry about conspiracies. No, the Civil Service is the one to watch over that...
4. Max, actually Britains relationship with "Uncle" Joe was rather frosty. Churchill didnt trust the man an inch (and as I'm feeling nasty I'll go on and say that we were rather let down in our justified paranoia by Rosselvelt who was frankly too nice to deal with Stalin.). Not to mention the friction over Poland, Russia shooting down RAF aircraft after they went into territory occupied by the Russians etc.
1. During the Cold War Russia was actually, in terms of 'high' science, generally ahead of the West. Where they lost was that their production capabilities were not as good as their high science, meaning little of the neat stuff they could have built was built.
2. Russia has been an agressor many, many times. As have all nation states. Reading a history book of the 20th Century should give you all the information available. Note by the way thast Russia too was prepared for a 1946 offensive against thre western allies and ruthlessly shot down western planes entering 'their' territory in '45-6.
3. Governments keep secrets, lots of them. Some are very important but most aren't. There are very few actual government conspiracies (Just read Fortean Times). Most people under the Offical Secrets Act are for trivial knowledge, in fact I'm under the Norwegian Governments equivalent. Its for something very trivial that for obvious reasons I won't say a word about. (I am allowed to say I'm under it though). Most governments are too busy thinking about getting elected to worry about conspiracies. No, the Civil Service is the one to watch over that...
4. Max, actually Britains relationship with "Uncle" Joe was rather frosty. Churchill didnt trust the man an inch (and as I'm feeling nasty I'll go on and say that we were rather let down in our justified paranoia by Rosselvelt who was frankly too nice to deal with Stalin.). Not to mention the friction over Poland, Russia shooting down RAF aircraft after they went into territory occupied by the Russians etc.
Rick
Mongoose
Thanks again, Hiro. Tried everything to find this sort of thing, although I seem to remember it being called something more mainstream than operation unthinkable!
I think it fell down on several counts - 1- Nobody wanted to trust the Wehrmacht with real guns (except Patton).
2- Patton was all for it.
3- The US and Britain had got what they came for (ie-central europe) and were ok to write off most of eastern europe after a long war.
4- The troops wanted to go home!
But just imagine the scenario; Tiger 2's produced for uk/us/german forces and sent east, all the latest tanks just out of production in use. Bit like Korea, but against the Soviet Union.
Actually it was a 'Just in Case' plan, if the Russians decided 'What the heck, let's visit France'. In 1968 there was another plan by the British to invade the USSR as a counter to a possible invasion of Romania. Look up stuff done by the PM Harold Wislon.
And I believe it was General Clay, not Patton who wanted to invade East Germany....
And I believe it was General Clay, not Patton who wanted to invade East Germany....
Rick
Mongoose
Interesting note here (honest). Was at Bovington Tank Museum this summer and saw an ex-Iraqi Chinese type 59 tank. The panel beside it explained that it was a copy of the Russian T-54, but that the Chinese tank had better production values and was a much better vehicle as a result. No arguments there, Russia has always funded new research heavily, but have always been let down by poorer levels of manufacture than other countries.
The other interesting thing was that the Iraqi's had a cobbled-together system of pipework running from the rear engine to the front glacis plate. Apparently this was a system to funnel smoke from the rear smoke generator (oil injected onto the engine) to the front of the tank. Wish I'd taken my camera.
The other interesting thing was that the Iraqi's had a cobbled-together system of pipework running from the rear engine to the front glacis plate. Apparently this was a system to funnel smoke from the rear smoke generator (oil injected onto the engine) to the front of the tank. Wish I'd taken my camera.
History
A new Russian MBT named Chiorny Oriol (Black Eagle) was shown for the first time at the second VTTV-Omsk-97 International Exhibition of Armaments, Military Equipment and Conversion Products held in September '97 in Omsk, Siberia region, Russia. Until recently, there were hardly any details about the tank except for a couple of words and a poster on the Defendory 1998 held in Greece. According to the information I have, this tank is being developed in cooperation with and for export to S.Korea and may even feature Korean thermal imagers. It will not be fielded with the Russian Army and seems to be entirely an initiative of Omsk Plant. It originates from the now-closed Nikolai Popov's design bureau at Leningrad Kirov Plant (LKZ) and is now developed by Alexander Morozov. The tank is built on a T-80U chassis and will borrow most of its components including FCS from T-80U. The most significant difference between the new tank and T-80 is the completely redesigned turret (at Omsk'97 a full-sized mock-up was presented) and the lengthened hull with 7 roadwheels per side. The new turret will have a larger degree of protection than the current Russian MBTs. The steep slope of forward armor plates on the turret reflects designers' desire to maximize protection from APFSDS rounds in a duel situation, when tanks fight "face to face". For additional protection, the tank is fitted with Kaktus ERA and the new Drozd-2 APS. It was originally planned to install a 152 mm gun that is being developed for a future Russian MBT. However, since this tank is not going to be fielded with the Russian Army, it carries a 125 mm 2A46M-series gun. Another innovation is a new automated ammo storage/loader, located in a turret bustle. It is separated from crew compartment by an armored bulkhead which greatly increases crew survivability. This design has several reasons. First, the Chechen war has shown that the carousel used in T-72/T-80/T-90 is too prone to ammo detonation when penetrated, invariably killing the crew. Second, adopted configuration also reduces Black Eagle's height by 400 mm by comparison with the T-80 (Perhaps a typo here, since this means that the tank is a mere 1.8 meters in height). Finally, horizontal ammunition arrangement in the turret bustle permits using longer (and therefore, more powerful) APFSDS rounds, unitary ammunition, simplified automatic loading process and increased rate of fire (expected to reach 10-12 rds/min). Black Eagle's on-board information system monitors all essential systems of the vehicle, and permits automated data exchange with other tanks and headquarters. The tank shall have a new 1200 hp 16-cyl. turbo-diesel engine and shall weigh around 50 tons. VTTV-Omsk-99 exhibition have finally revealed the complete vehicle (referred by KBMZ as Item 640) without any netting. Several features became immediately apparent. It was apparent for the first time that the vehicle's hull is not taken directly from T-80U as was originally believed, but was significantly redesigned, the obvious change being the 7th roadwheel. It seems that most of the additional length has gone into the raised front hull protection and greater glacis obliquity. It also raises doubts if the tank indeed stays in Class 50. The active protection system appears to be Drozd, not Arena, derivative. Although the tank indeed carries the 2A46M maingun, it was stated that provision is made for installation of a new 152mm maingun. This implies that Omsk still hopes to win the hearts of the Russian military with this new tank. (Source: armour.kiev.ua)
A new Russian MBT named Chiorny Oriol (Black Eagle) was shown for the first time at the second VTTV-Omsk-97 International Exhibition of Armaments, Military Equipment and Conversion Products held in September '97 in Omsk, Siberia region, Russia. Until recently, there were hardly any details about the tank except for a couple of words and a poster on the Defendory 1998 held in Greece. According to the information I have, this tank is being developed in cooperation with and for export to S.Korea and may even feature Korean thermal imagers. It will not be fielded with the Russian Army and seems to be entirely an initiative of Omsk Plant. It originates from the now-closed Nikolai Popov's design bureau at Leningrad Kirov Plant (LKZ) and is now developed by Alexander Morozov. The tank is built on a T-80U chassis and will borrow most of its components including FCS from T-80U. The most significant difference between the new tank and T-80 is the completely redesigned turret (at Omsk'97 a full-sized mock-up was presented) and the lengthened hull with 7 roadwheels per side. The new turret will have a larger degree of protection than the current Russian MBTs. The steep slope of forward armor plates on the turret reflects designers' desire to maximize protection from APFSDS rounds in a duel situation, when tanks fight "face to face". For additional protection, the tank is fitted with Kaktus ERA and the new Drozd-2 APS. It was originally planned to install a 152 mm gun that is being developed for a future Russian MBT. However, since this tank is not going to be fielded with the Russian Army, it carries a 125 mm 2A46M-series gun. Another innovation is a new automated ammo storage/loader, located in a turret bustle. It is separated from crew compartment by an armored bulkhead which greatly increases crew survivability. This design has several reasons. First, the Chechen war has shown that the carousel used in T-72/T-80/T-90 is too prone to ammo detonation when penetrated, invariably killing the crew. Second, adopted configuration also reduces Black Eagle's height by 400 mm by comparison with the T-80 (Perhaps a typo here, since this means that the tank is a mere 1.8 meters in height). Finally, horizontal ammunition arrangement in the turret bustle permits using longer (and therefore, more powerful) APFSDS rounds, unitary ammunition, simplified automatic loading process and increased rate of fire (expected to reach 10-12 rds/min). Black Eagle's on-board information system monitors all essential systems of the vehicle, and permits automated data exchange with other tanks and headquarters. The tank shall have a new 1200 hp 16-cyl. turbo-diesel engine and shall weigh around 50 tons. VTTV-Omsk-99 exhibition have finally revealed the complete vehicle (referred by KBMZ as Item 640) without any netting. Several features became immediately apparent. It was apparent for the first time that the vehicle's hull is not taken directly from T-80U as was originally believed, but was significantly redesigned, the obvious change being the 7th roadwheel. It seems that most of the additional length has gone into the raised front hull protection and greater glacis obliquity. It also raises doubts if the tank indeed stays in Class 50. The active protection system appears to be Drozd, not Arena, derivative. Although the tank indeed carries the 2A46M maingun, it was stated that provision is made for installation of a new 152mm maingun. This implies that Omsk still hopes to win the hearts of the Russian military with this new tank. (Source: armour.kiev.ua)
