Testing Redundancy on Vassal

[Alexb83]

Okay, here's an option: you roll crits as normal. The first x (x being the no. of redundancy for the ship) which cause a reduction in speed, AD or impair SAs are ignored (but they are still treated as criticals, and they still do their extra damage). Only the speed/AD/SA reduction is removed.

As has been mentioned before, having a spare engine doesn't stop the first blowing up, it simply stops the ship from grinding to a halt.

 

[animus]

Man I'm glad to see this come back.

I think redundancy has as much to do with bulk as anything - the big ships should act like space stations which don't take crits. I'd argue that a better title might be "mass" points, particularly since something called redundant systems already exists in the game.

The Drakh situation isn't a problem because the redundancy doesn't say the crit is ignored, it says that the first crits are scored against redundancy. Redundancy will be eaten away sooner by more little guns. Even though the GEG might work, the Redundancy is reduced by 1 which means the next crit might get through and the desired boom achieved. This isn't a permanent shield - it's a way to keep the big ships alive a turn or two. THINK MOVABLE SPACE STATIONS.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think it's a GREAT idea. However, I think it will play better like this:

Patrol & Skirmish = 0
Raid = 1
Battle & War = 2
Armageddon = 3

Ancients - hurm, after we see how it works with the regular fleets, we can tackle this one. Maybe something like ignore the 1st crit every turn?

Let's get on with playtesting

 

[Burger]

I'd say 0 for Patrol, Skirmish and Raid, 1 for Battle, 2 for War and 3 for Armageddon. This rule is meant to protect big ships.

Ancients - hurm, after we see how it works with the regular fleets, we can tackle this one. Maybe something like ignore the 1st crit every turn?

Sounds quite good to me. The one game I've played and the one I've watched involving an ancient, they both took between 4 and 14 crits per turn, so it wouldn't be a massive effect, and still leave the ancient vulnerable to all the other crits.

 

[animus]

I'd say 0 for Patrol, Skirmish and Raid, 1 for Battle, 2 for War and 3 for Armageddon. This rule is meant to protect big ships.

Ancients - hurm, after we see how it works with the regular fleets, we can tackle this one. Maybe something like ignore the 1st crit every turn?

Sounds quite good to me. The one game I've played and the one I've watched involving an ancient, they both took between 4 and 14 crits per turn, so it wouldn't be a massive effect, and still leave the ancient vulnerable to all the other crits.

Yes, better. I forgot which way it went:

Patrol, Skirmish & Raid = 0
Battle = 1
War = 2
Armageddon = 3

Maybe Ancients get Redundancy 3 AND ignore 1/turn. Might be better still.

Playtesting will tell how the rule should work ....

 

[LaranosTZ]

*shrugs* Personally, I think a ship of raid level would have at least some backup systems, which is why I started the points at that level.

Nothing saying that it can't be playtested with both charts.

Chart 1:

Skirmish/Patrol = 0

Raid = 1

Battle = 2

War = 3

Armageddon = 4


Chart 2:

Skirmish/Patrol/Raid = 0

Battle = 1

War = 2

Armageddon = 3

But I will reiterate, I wasn't looking to discuss the merits and various small issues with the rule. I proposed a rule, and I'd like to playtest it, not argue the heck out of it, which is why it vanished the first time.

Oh, and I'll be hanging out on Vassal for most of friday, if anyone does want to join me to playtest.

 

[Target]

There is always the option of having CQ check to see if the redundancy works.

 

[animus]

There is always the option of having CQ check to see if the redundancy works.

No.


Think Bulk; Think Space Station.

 

[Frohike]

I agree with the start at battle level option, it has been shown that multiple smaller ships do tend to win over a small number of larger ships so this would be great way at leveling the playing fields - forget fires, this is a better idea.

As for how and what is negated by the redundancy, I think it should only be the effects of the critical not the damage caused.

 

[animus]

The idea was not that the hit would be ignored - it would be a solid hit, with all damage and multipliers in place, but the Crit Roll wouldn't be taken - just a reduction in the "Bulk* stat" .

* I'm calling it "Bulk" now. "Redundancy" needs to go, I'm using Bulk so we stop thinking of systems and tech and more sheer size.

 

[katadder]

if gonne use this needs to be more like the ancients redundancy, as in you get so many free repairs, even the ancients dont ignore crits, they have to go a turn without whatever you critted.

 

[animus]

even the ancients dont ignore crits, they have to go a turn without whatever you critted.

Maybe this needs to change too. A Bulk rating for them would keep them in the fight for a turn or two. Look at previous battle reports for how they're doing. Also, the Vorlons and Shadows ignore the crit effects already. The Ancients Redundancy would keep them in the fight after their bulk is gone.

It's not a huge change, just a very logical simple tweak to allow these big expensive ships a turn to play before being critted out.

I wish I could Vassal and get to testing it.

 

[CodeofArms]

Would the redundancy not just negate the critical effect? The damage of the roll could still be 'critical damage' and thus the GEG would not effect it.

 

[animus]

Would the redundancy not just negate the critical effect? The damage of the roll could still be 'critical damage' and thus the GEG would not effect it.

Possibly. I don't play Drakh so I don't know. I don't think it would change that much to just let the Bulk absorb a couple of hits before all hell breaks loose. I don't see why this rule should help or hurt the Drakh more than any other race. By connecting the rule to PL level, it's clean across the board. Obviously tweaks can come after playtesting, but let's get the baby clean then dress it up.

 

[Target]

My reason for the CQ check is it's like "Reroute power to aux engine". "Damn the fuses are gone in that one as well Sir". Better crew more less likely they blow the fuses. Don't really like the idea automatically ignoring the crit, a chance is fine. How do you know the aux parts weren't damaged in a early strike, you wouldn't know to you need to use them. Might be alone on this one though.

 

[animus]

The idea has always been a simple mechanism. Bulk should just work.

Maybe you could use your CQ checks to regain lost Bulk as Damage Control, beyond that, just let the ship absorb the Bulk hit and keep rolling. So say I.

 

[Tredrick]

I like the idea. Giving the Narn a slight boost in it compared to other races would reflect the notion that their ships defense lies in their bulk. Other races, possibly the Minbari and the Drakh, could have less of it to reflect the more delicate nature of their ships.

 

[Alexb83]

That's a bit silly - Drakh and Minbo ships are already given to lower hull ratings and shorter damage tracks. No need to make either any more weak than they already are for their level.

 

[animus]

The problem we're trying to fix is a complication of Priority Levels and Crit tables. Bulk (see it's catchy) is made to encourage one to take higher Priority Level ships. Race is (should be) already taken care of within the current rules - the problem is in losing a big ship first turn.

 

[Ripple]

Agree...

Keep it simple, CQ check just adds another layer of luck.

Special rules for every race and his brother is just one more thing to get wrong during play.

Under Armeggedon point spliting rules there is virtually no incentive to take larger ships. For one battle point I can get a raid, a skirmish and two patrol or one battle that might die/become irrelevant due to a lucky crit in the first turn. At least with the split point it will take four lucky crits. And those lucky crits can just as easily be damage as 'effects' (a triple damage weapon hitting one of the 4 additional damage/crew hits can easily take a damaging hit to a finishing one.)

(under SFoS you could get four Patrol or what was considered the 'broken' splite of two skirmish and a raid as you best choices, so Arm just added a bit of depth but that is more crits.)

I just want a reason to take an Omega over a Hyperion/Nova, Olympus/Oracle and two Hermes.

Ripple

 

[animus]

I just want a reason to take an Omega over a Hyperion/Nova, Olympus/Oracle and two Hermes.

Ripple

Exactly.

I hope Mongoose is watching this and will incorporate something like this in 2nd Ed. There is a real problem and I think this could fix it.