Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Yep. And hence, the taxes on things like trade.
Taxes, the Imperium, and You!
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Of course not. No one posited that for the sole source of 3I income. That was put forward for A source of income for planetary gov't. Sales tax is more in line for empire level revenue.
wintertraveller
Cosmic Mongoose
The Third Imperium book says "Nobles serve as Imperial administrators, collecting taxes..."
This evokes a vision of the Imperial Knight on each world acting as a local "liaison" collecting taxes in whatever manner produces results for that world. This suggests a whole Sheriff of Nottingham vibe.
This evokes a vision of the Imperial Knight on each world acting as a local "liaison" collecting taxes in whatever manner produces results for that world. This suggests a whole Sheriff of Nottingham vibe.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Watch out for Robin Hood
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Meet the newly appointed Imperial Knight on your world. I'm sure it'll be fine.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The Third Imperium book doesn't always do the nuance of the setting...
One of the earliest statements about the Imperium is that Imperial governmental authority begins at the subsector level, plus we also know the Imperium has several ministries.
Subsector dukes will be assigned oversight of taxation, make sure each world pays up, the bureaucracy handles the actual money transfer.
Last edited:
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
I am sure the regional branch bureaucracy of the subsector has lesser rank and ceremonial nobility or Imperial Gentry within its ranks as overseers and administrators of the local collection procedure.
And the Imperial Landed Nobility of a world would represent the Imperium (i.e. Subsector Duke) to the world via the assigned Imperial Landed Knight, and any other Imperial Landed Nobles assigned to the world would also represent Imperial interests involving the world at the interworld/subsector level at the Ducal Court. (At least based on T5's fleshing out of Nobility).
Or do you see it differently?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Generally speaking, you do need some hierarchical heft to get the lower rungs to cooperate.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Very differently.
Where are all the landed knights representing the Imperium mentioned in CT canon, specifically The Traveller Adventure?
How does an Imperium that rules the space between the planets own land on the planets? Where is this explained or mentioned in the aforementioned sources?
As time has gone by fanon and retcon has changed the structure of the Imperium, I will stick with the (proto)version as that is what makes sense for a sparsely settled distant frontier sector. For a sector that has been developped, occupied and colonised for over a thousand years then it makes sense to have a lot more direct Imperial representation, but that changes the nature of the setting as is presented still.
The Spinward Marches are in a weird superposition of alternative description.
Last edited:
There was no significant mention of landed nobility having any role in government of planets until GURPS Traveller came out with its Nobles book.
Honestly, I have no idea how the Imperial nobility is supposed to function when you have planetary governments AND nobles for every planet that supposedly do something. Something vaguely like how Senators and Governors interact in the US, I guess? But there's no information on what, if any, powers or influence that a noble has. There is certainly no consistency in the presentation across products.
I know how they work IMTU, but that's much more like the Russian Czarist Table of Ranks and not "Feudal" at all. (Aka certain levels of attainment in the Imperial government are ennobling) which is definitely not how Canon thinks of it. To the limited extent canon thinks about it at all.
Honestly, I have no idea how the Imperial nobility is supposed to function when you have planetary governments AND nobles for every planet that supposedly do something. Something vaguely like how Senators and Governors interact in the US, I guess? But there's no information on what, if any, powers or influence that a noble has. There is certainly no consistency in the presentation across products.
I know how they work IMTU, but that's much more like the Russian Czarist Table of Ranks and not "Feudal" at all. (Aka certain levels of attainment in the Imperial government are ennobling) which is definitely not how Canon thinks of it. To the limited extent canon thinks about it at all.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
This was a definite T5 retcon. Prior editions tended to imply that average worlds were generally "associated with" Barons (if you squint hard enough) by looking at the comments on the Marquis (until GT & T4 made things more explicit for their rulesets and respective eras).
I don't think ruling the space between the planets necessarily precludes the acquisition of title to certain lands on planets by standard or other negotiated means. It is just a statement of the domain of primary authority. Just as in the USA there are States which are self-governing, and a Constitution which (in theory) relegates all powers not specifically granted to the Federal Government to the States. And yet there are Federal Lands within those States (and Federal overreach of authority).
Do you think the current description works well for the Core Regions of the Imperium (long settled and entrenched) but should otherwise be modified in a more proto-Traveller direction specifically for Frontiers and Backwaters?
What about Reaver's Deep or the Solomani Rim Region?
Last edited:
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I think nearly every world in the core sectors should be under direct Imperial rule, as is hinted at in the early material, and that they have been economically developed into cash cows for the nobility. I was never a fan of just extending Spinward Marches randomness to the whole Imperium.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
I rather like the idea suggested in T4 for Milieu:0 that the basic concept of the "Rule between the Stars" was part of Cleon's concept from the beginning in the Core in order to generate "buy-in" to the system, with the Imperium regulating trade and dealing with piracy and rogue states and taking its cut in return as part of the deal thru the Nobiliary system, sweetening the pot with access to FusionPlus.
But of course, the real plan being to over time insinuate themselves into positions of local power thru intrigues and intermarriage and dominate the trade system thru undercutting and buy-outs, and choking the trade of non-complying entities, and eventually becoming effective overlords thru proxies in the "local" governments, or through individuals outrightly wearing multiple hats in both local and Imperial offices of nobility.
And then came Artemsus and the Lentuli Dynasty, the military expansionists . . . And the subsequent unsettled period of the non-Dynastic Emperors . . .
So with the various wars and revolts (Ilelish Revolt, Julian War, Civil War, Rim War, other Pacification conflicts, etc. ) I can see somewhat of a bit of both of the "direct rule" on some worlds, but shrewdly relaxed in many places in the 11th Century in favor of a more Cleonian/Kerrian-vision "local government" that toes the line before Imperial Overlords and their interests in the Core.
But I definitely like the idea of preserving as much as possible the "Frontier Feel" of the Marches and Backwaters, even if they have been settled for some time, even if that takes some tweaking.
But that is my take.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Although having said all of that, I also get the "Late Western Roman Empire" vibe with anglicized late Roman titles and local government officials with local titles kow-towing to the empire thru the Dux (Duke) and Comites (Counts) leading the Imperial Civil government and military static and mobile field forces, and local defensive foederati on the borders (all of which are somewhat implied by the Proto-Traveller milieu literature).
I am not sure how easy that would be to work back into the current literature on the milieu, however.
I am not sure how easy that would be to work back into the current literature on the milieu, however.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I imagine a complex web of financial, economic, and unofficial influences through which the Imperial fiefholder or assigned noble exercises considerable influence over planetary affairs, in the realms which the Imperium cares about.
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
We are the Imperium, we do not exert any control over your world at all. All of our influence ends at the Starport fence.
It just so happens that we are blocking all soybeans from crossing that border for the next eight months. It has nothing to do with you refusing to garrison Imperial Marines in the city. Far from it. There is simply no way to thoroughly inspect all of those shipments in time before they spoil. I am sure you understand.
It just so happens that we are blocking all soybeans from crossing that border for the next eight months. It has nothing to do with you refusing to garrison Imperial Marines in the city. Far from it. There is simply no way to thoroughly inspect all of those shipments in time before they spoil. I am sure you understand.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Knowing human nature, more likely the latest iPhones.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Tragically, starport inspection resources have been tied up due to security concerns, and the inspections required for exports will be delayed for the forseeable future. Although, if the planetary authorities could do something about these dangerous dissenters, starport customs inspectors would be available to conduct their usual duties.
