T5 available in UK

[Lord High Munchkin]

The difference between 'Space Opera" and 'Traveller" was that there was an OTU. People bought into that.

'Space Opera' was not setting-based in a "hard fashion". They provided at least 3 different settings, as far as I can tell. 'Traveller' on the other hand, gradually coalesced onto a single setting (love it or hate it... I hate it) that "fixed" its path of future development. People bought into that.

FGU (who still operate and produce new material for other games systems) are in a very dicey legal position as regards SO... basically, they don't legally own the IP anymore, but no-one has challenged them. So, no development. The fact that only Phil McGregor (I believe) is still alive is a consideration too.

Back to 'Traveller 5'... it's too rambling. Even pulling out useable sub-systems to use in a current 'Traveller' rules system (which will be basically MGT) is hard. There are some nuggets, but they are covered in material that is "undesirable" (you know what I mean... it's brown-sticky stuff).

'Space Opera' definitely had promise... just never achieved.

 

[F33D]

Both 'Space Opera' and 'Traveller 5' are examples of "pick-n-mix sandbox" rules systems.

Nope. T5 is a train-wreck. Fan boy's circling the wagons are now attaching the appellations of "toolkit", "pick-n-mix". et al to the game instead of pointing out that it was advertised as the ULTIMATE version of the Traveller GAME. (NOT accusing you of that BTW) NOT a hash of rules piled haphazardly into a 600+ page tome that GM's are expected to sift for some possibly usable game material.

I just saw a post over at Marc's boards. A mod warned a poster that stating that T5 was unplayable is now grounds for infraction and eventual banning from the boards. :lol:

You KNOW a product is sunk when diehard fans, who paid big bucks ahead of time are now threatened with banishment if they voice their disappointment/frustration with having their money wasted.

 

[rust]

I just saw a post over at Marc's boards. A mod warned a poster that stating that T5 was unplayable is now grounds for infraction and eventual banning from the boards. :lol:

The Emperor's new clothes ... ah, game ... :shock:

 

[mechascorpio]

I just saw a post over at Marc's boards. A mod warned a poster that stating that T5 was unplayable is now grounds for infraction and eventual banning from the boards. :lol:

You KNOW a product is sunk when diehard fans, who paid big bucks ahead of time are now threatened with banishment if they voice their disappointment/frustration with having their money wasted.

Worse than that, I was chastised for saying that it was my opinion that the game was unplayable. This was in response to someone who stated factually that those who didn't like it have agendas and motivations, beyond simply hoping for a good return on our Kickstarter support, and that we should be ignored. Further, T5 is "essential"; that is, that regardless of what version of Traveller you play, your collection and your game is incomplete without purchasing the T5 book (I refuse to call it a game) and, presumably, the CD-ROM so that you could search the text. "FACT!"

But I'm okay with the admonishment, it brought to the surface what is and what isn't okay to say about T5. And it's understandable because the same opinion metric has certainly been evenly applied to discussions there regarding, for instance, Mongoose's Traveller.

Oh, wait...

Bottom line: in my opinion, no one should purchase T5 as blindly as those who backed the Kickstarter. A large and growing errata document (and its mere existence) shouldn't be hidden behind a closed forum. Those who made the commitment to back it or purchase it should be able to discuss it as freely as any other much-loved or much-maligned version of Traveller, or any other game. Those who are trying to protect the designer(s) from the complete reaction to T5 do everyone a disservice, else there will be little motivation and information to attempt to fix it.

But at the end of the day, it's their forum, their rules.

 

[F33D]

But at the end of the day, it's their forum, their rules.

Correct, and their Emperor, Nude as he is... 8)

 

[Wil Mireu]

Two things strike me about the reaction on Coti:

1) the level of self-delusion among the fanboys. There's a handful of people there who are in flat-out denial about T5's many flaws. They either simply refuse to believe they exist, or refuse to believe that anyone else could perceive them as being major issues. It's one thing for people to see some diamonds among the crap, but they're essentially saying that all the crap doesn't exist, or can just be ignored. This also includes how they've shifted the goalposts so that T5 isn't an RPG but it's actually a 'toolkit', to justify its flaws. And also some are so paranoid that they think that anyone who dislikes T5 because they have some weird 'agenda' (of promoting other editions over T5, of 'hating Marc Miller', or whatever). Either way, there are a handful of people there who are just churning out increasingly nonsensical justifications for the game's flaws and other people's opinions (there was even one guy telling someone who was still waiting for his kickstarter package to appear to just buy another copy from the game store that now somehow has it in stock before he's got the one he already paid for. I can't even fathom what his logic in suggesting that was). Frankly, those people are looking increasingly delusional.

2) the amount of effort that some people are willing to go to in order to 'fix T5'. Maybe it's because they don't want their investment to be wasted, maybe it's because they think they are part of a community that somehow owes it to Marc to fix it (despite having paid through the nose for the privilege of watching Marc write it while ignoring their input) but this all seems like waaaay too much effort for people to do for free, and doing it in public just goes to highlight how effed up the game was.

Meanwhile, there is no explanation forthcoming for how T5 was botched so badly (despite at least one thread explicitly asking for it) given how many people looked at it and how much money was invested in it. The level of sheer apathy from Marc about T5's reception is pretty disgusting IMO - and yet the fanboys keep making excuses for him, as if they feel it's their duty to defend him.

Even if they fix the problems before the game is officially released, people who spent a lot of money on the kickstarter are still lumbered with a vastly over-priced, disorganised, amateurish, over-sized book that is riddled with errors. Already they're looking to the "players guide" promised during the kickstarter - that was ostensibly just supposed to shave the game down to its basic rules - that is now going to have to fix problems that should not have been there in the first place.

 

[F33D]

Two things strike me about the reaction on Coti:

1) the level of self-delusion among the fanboys. There's a handful of people there who are in flat-out denial about T5's many flaws. They either simply refuse to believe they exist, or refuse to believe that anyone else could perceive them as being major issues. It's one thing for people to see some diamonds among the crap, but they're essentially saying that all the crap doesn't exist, or can just be ignored. This also including how they've shifted the goalposts so that T5 isn't an RPG but it's actually a 'toolkit', to justify its flaws.

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

 

[Wil Mireu]

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

In this case, it's more like "it's easier for people to fool themselves than to convince them that they have been fooled".

 

[rust]

In the beginning was the plan,
and then the specification;
And the plan was without form,
and the specification was void.

And darkness
was on the faces of the buyers thereof;
And they spake unto their friends,
saying:
“It is a crock of shit,
and smells as of a sewer.”

And the friends took pity on them,
and spoke to the first playtester:
“It is a crock of excrement,
and none may abide the odor thereof.”

And the first playtester
spake unto the second playtester, saying:
“It is a container of excrement,
and it is very strong, such that none may abide it.”

The second playtester then hurried to the co-author,
and informed him thus:
“It is a vessel of fertilizer,
and none may abide its strength.”

The co-author carried these words
to the second co-author,
and spoke unto him
saying:
“It containeth that which aideth the growth,
and it is very strong.”

And so it was that the second co-author rejoiced
and delivered the good news unto the third co-author:
“It promoteth growth,
and it is very powerful.”

The third co-author rushed to the Author's side,
and joyously exclaimed:
“This powerful new roleplaying game
will promote the growth of the company!”

And the Author looked upon the game,
and saw that it was very good.

 

[Wil Mireu]

^^^ Amazing

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Thankfully I merely spent an hour and a bit speed-reading a friend's copy (at which skill I'm luckily reasonably good).

I came away thinking that it was unplayable... and that I should have rather been actually taking part in the game session that my friends were enjoying whilst I was reading.

It could have been much worse... I could have actually bought it.

 

[F33D]

^^^ Amazing

Seconded

 

[Airlock14]

^^^ Amazing

Seconded

Thirded.
Rust my friend, you got it in one.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

your collection and your game is incomplete without purchasing the T5 book (I refuse to call it a game) and, presumably, the CD-ROM so that you could search the text. "FACT!"

The Traveller 5 PDF is not really searchable, unless you know the strange nomenclature Marc Miller insisted on using throughout the book. "NPC" is found only three times in the PDF. Common everyday RPG terms are not to be found in the book. Marc Miller writes in repeated circles in a narrative way rather than in a orderly description way. Rather than say "die roll" or "combat roll", he'll use a paragraph to describe a more abstract player action. So even if you do find the page you're looking for, you're still scratching your head wondering what is being said.

But I'm okay with the admonishment, it brought to the surface what is and what isn't okay to say about T5.

It isn't made clear that the COTI forum is Marc Miller's forum. Even though he rarely visits or knows what's going on the site. He has handlers for all that. Some forum posts will get copy/pasted to Marc Miller's email. But he doesn't reply to any of them, if he's even reading them.

A lot of COTI members assume that it is a fan-run site. It is fan-run. But it is not a fan-run site. A real Traveller forum site run by fans soon gets a visit from e-lawyers.

Even if they fix the problems before the game is officially released, people who spent a lot of money on the kickstarter are still lumbered with a vastly over-priced, disorganised, amateurish, over-sized book that is riddled with errors. Already they're looking to the "players guide" promised during the kickstarter - that was ostensibly just supposed to shave the game down to its basic rules - that is now going to have to fix problems that should not have been there in the first place.

I'm not sure how a Player book can be made from the Core book. Someone can just remove 450 pages from the Core book and call it a Player book, but what would the remaining 200 pages contain? Maybe CharGen and some weapon list? Ok, so remove more pages that are not helpful at all to anyone. Now the Player book is 50 pages. What would be left? The personals stuff? The combat stuff? If the Player book is composed of these same pages as written in the Core book (and you know they will be), it'll be just another train wreck smashing into the first one. I say shut down that railroad or abandon that rail line. I was one of those people saying "iceberg ahead!" in the beta test forums. That was years ago. Fanboys that knew nothing about even playing an RPG were helping with writing the Core book just so they could get their name in the credits? There was no game designer, and no outline, and no kind of order for what would be in the game. Then at the 11th hour, all these "maker" things are just thrown into the book. But the truck still had no chassis. No engine mount. Since I was not in any kind of inner circle, my say on how the beta was being handled didn't seem to matter.

It's all for nostalgia that people are paying too much money for a defective product. Whatever sound was heard when people complained about Traveller 4, the sound of complaints about Traveller 5 will be like the big bang.

 

[Infojunky]

A lot of COTI members assume that it is a fan-run site. It is fan-run. But it is not a fan-run site.

Yep, while there are others here who could give a better history of COTI, my basic understanding is that it was the personal fief of the Gent who wrote T20 (another prime example of bad layout and cludgy mechanics). Who offered space for the T5 playtest, then up an died leaving the site in nebulous hands.

Note some of the major players on the board where people who were too intolerant of any idea other than what theirs were of Traveller. They also were heavily involved with the "Playtest" of T5.

It's all for nostalgia that people are paying too much money for a defective product. Whatever sound was heard when people complained about Traveller 4, the sound of complaints about Traveller 5 will be like the big bang.

The Key thing to remember is the majority of people writing/playtesting for T5 don't play the game, they just collect and read the game then form opinions about how they think it works. They are also the loudest ones to complain when you describe or ask about ideas that don't fall within their definition of Traveller. A living campaign, even one that is in the Official Traveller Universe will diverge from what is written as soon at the players gather at the table.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Note some of the major players on the board where people who were too intolerant of any idea other than what theirs were of Traveller. They also were heavily involved with the "Playtest" of T5.

The Traveller canonistas. I called them the filters. They decided what results/comments Marc got to see from the beta releases. Well, it's all done and paid for now with good intentions I suppose.