T5 Announcement!

[BP]

Whole heartedly agree - in RP I prefer minimal die rolling - and fewer cooky cutter details myself.

I think you somewhat over-mixed two things there though - GM freedom from excessive rules (RP versus simulation) and the other major ingredients for enjoyable roleplay (trust and non-competitive play). Not saying they are not related - messed up, either one alone can ruin RP - and together, done well, they do make for the best experience.

Design systems complexity is not directly related to RP. But, recognising the same balances is nice - hence, I am not so interested in 'realism' as flexibility, consistency and ease of use (formulas winning in many of these areas - even ease of use). I.e. - it doesn't have to be a simulation - but I do want to be able to trust it (consistency) and not fight with it to make my creations 'work' within its framework (not force things into crappy tables with needless cross reference coding).

 

[aspqrz]

Back tracking a little bit, I have noticed that any attempt to replace a good GM with Rules is destined to fail, sorry.

While I tend to agree, how, then, do you categorise "En Garde", which I, personally, would say is as close to GMless as possible, yet still is a RPG of sorts?

Still available, what, close to 30 years after release and still with a cult following, evidently.

Actually, changing the names of the Regiments and making it a Travelleresque SF version would be eminently possible!

Phil

 

[PFVA63]

I have always felt that 3 significant figures is "good enough".

When you have a 500,000 ton ship, figuring out something to the thousanth of a ton is rediculous. Same for cost. When dealing in Megacredits (1,000,000 credits) who cares about a Cr. 10 comm unit or a Cr. 20 coil of rope?

Hi,

I agree too.

My comment about making it clear what the intent is, was based on my experience with GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars, where (if I am recalling correctly) if you rounded your intermediate calcs appropriately you could replicate the designs in the book correctly.

However, if you did not (say if you wrote a spreadsheet, where the results from each intermediate step in your calcs feed into the next - carrying as many decimal places in these calcs that the spreadsheet will allow) your results could end up being somewhat off from the data presented for the standard designs in the book.

It is my belief that this was perhaps a big part of why some people claimed that the official designs in the book were somewhat broken, because they couldn't completely replicate the results.

Regards

PF

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Probably due to the limitations of spreadsheets etc at that time.

Those initial calculations were all done by hand or with simple calculators that didn't do very much.

They wrote down the intermediate results and rounded as they went.

Spreadsheets came about years later.

 

[AndrewW]

Probably due to the limitations of spreadsheets etc at that time.

Those initial calculations were all done by hand or with simple calculators that didn't do very much.

They wrote down the intermediate results and rounded as they went.

Spreadsheets came about years later.

Hmmm, spreadsheets have been around awhile. Certainly since before GURPS Traveller, even during the Classic Traveller timeframe.

 

[BP]

The first mainstream 'spreadsheet' program I ever used was VisiCalc - which was available ~1979-80 IIRC. (Lotus 1-2-3 was early 80's I think).

However, some of the early CT stuff often came from computer programs (BASIC most likely) - I suspect Marc and friends had prior access to government/educational systems - the use of hexidecimal coding (UPP, UWPs...) is definitely a clue.

I also know they weren't 'professional' programmers. But, that isn't really that important - they were professional game designers!

Of course, just because such things were available doesn't mean they were used, nor used with proficiency. Case in point - the quality of MGT's deckplans in print and PDF is very poor, considering the technology that has been reasonably publicly available since the late 80's. They obviously were created using computers - just without the proper knowhow to translate them into a quality of final product like things produced decades earlier. (They still aren't half bad - but the fuzzy, pixelated deckplans could obviously be better.)

 

[AndrewW]

The first mainstream 'spreadsheet' program I ever used was VisiCalc - which was available ~1979-80 IIRC. (Lotus 1-2-3 was early 80's I think).

Good old VisiCalc, that's the one I was thinking about, haven't used that in awhile...

However, some of the early CT stuff often came from computer programs (BASIC most likely) - I suspect Marc and friends had prior access to government/educational systems - the use of hexidecimal coding (UPP, UWPs...) is definitely a clue.

Applesoft BASIC.

Of course, just because such things were available doesn't mean they were used, nor used with proficiency. Case in point - the quality of MGT's deckplans in print and PDF is very poor, considering the technology that has been reasonably publicly available since the late 80's. They obviously were created using computers - just without the proper knowhow to translate them into a quality of final product like things produced decades earlier. (They still aren't half bad - but the fuzzy, pixelated deckplans could obviously be better.)

The Mongoose ones where created with Photoshop. It's a matter of fitting them to the page and being too small...

 

[BP]

More precisely its a matter of not utilizing resolution-independent vector to final device raster conversion (and no consideration of optimization of the setscreen funciton)

Applesoft BASIC? - haven't thought of that in decades. Don't recall much use for hex in that language - even the PEEKs and POKEs I think were in decimal? 'Course, wouldn't count (regardless of the radix) on my memory that many years and languages ago...

I've never cared enough to find out more about the authors or history of my beloved game - I also ignored the setting as well, except the charted-space data (it does look very cool in 3D). I assumed Mark or fellow authors (Chadwick?) of the original LLBs (pretty much all I've ever bought till MGT) had some military theory/simulation background that might have brought exposure to computers back in those days.

Traveller probably stuck with me mostly because it seemed perfectly geared for supporting with computers - I wrote CT programs for everything, and on every computer system I came across - Apple IIe, Timex Sinclair, TI-99/4a, Commodore Vic-20 to C128 (well no Amiga programs), some Atari thing, some Tandy things, PC-XT and ATs, plus some kinda VAX/PDL? punch card supporting thing and a Burroughs monster on 8" floppies, etc. Early on I even created battery powered LED and later LCD TTL logic based circuits to do some dedicated things (dice rolling and something else, maybe trade/combat related).

Traveller just screams out for computer assistance. Its a shame the licenses that were granted never seemed to get very far in this respect - I know there was the MegaTraveller based games and, at one point, an MMORPG in production. Bits has more recently brought forth some commercial apps, but most everything has been unofficial fan material that comes and goes.

(sorry - ramble mode - off)

 

[AndrewW]

More precisely its a matter of not utilizing resolution-independent vector to final device raster conversion (and no consideration of optimization of the setscreen funciton)

The Mongoose deckplans start out as bitmaps so nope, sure don't. Reign of Discordia deckplans started life as vector images but only bitmaps where used in final product...

Applesoft BASIC? - haven't thought of that in decades. Don't recall much use for hex in that language - even the PEEKs and POKEs I think were in decimal? 'Course, wouldn't count (regardless of the radix) on my memory that many years and languages ago...

It doesn't. Though ASM and machine code on there did.

Traveller probably stuck with me mostly because it seemed perfectly geared for supporting with computers - I wrote CT programs for everything, and on every computer system I came across - Apple IIe, Timex Sinclair, TI-99/4a, Commodore Vic-20 to C128 (well no Amiga programs), some Atari thing, some Tandy things, PC-XT and ATs, plus some kinda VAX/PDL? punch card supporting thing and a Burroughs monster on 8" floppies, etc. Early on I even created battery powered LED and later LCD TTL logic based circuits to do some dedicated things (dice rolling and something else, maybe trade/combat related).

C16 and Plus 4 as well? Skipped the 128D? Still got a datacassette recorder and 3k memory expansion module for a VIC-20 sitting in the closet...

Traveller just screams out for computer assistance. Its a shame the licenses that were granted never seemed to get very far in this respect - I know there was the MegaTraveller based games and, at one point, an MMORPG in production. Bits has more recently brought forth some commercial apps, but most everything has been unofficial fan material that comes and goes.

Got MegaTraveller 1 The Zhodani Conspiracy here.

(sorry - ramble mode - off)[/quote]

***Deactivates mode

 

[BP]

Shame about the Reign of Discordia being converted to raster if it was done for PDF...

C16 and Plus 4 as well? Skipped the 128D?

Nope - the C16 and Plus 4, IIRC came after the C64 and were rather stripped down, so I didn't know anybody with one - though, yep, had a 128D (the one with a seperate keyboard I believe) - I believe it was actually the first computer I bought with my own money. Remember modding the heck out of it - with chips soldered on chips, trace cutting a RAM expansion module and reprogramming the EPROMS that held the BASIC...

I also did earlier Apples. Most of the systems were either family, friends, schools or university (as a teen I had access to a university library and a research institute systems).

There were probably a few I missed - like a Radio Shack T1000 (or some such portable) and a Color Computer? (these are only the ones I wrote Traveller stuff for - there were others ) I never had the time to write Traveller supplements for Sun Workstations or the NeXT, though I was later tempted to write something for an SP2 when they first came out.

Sadly, its been 9~10 years since I wrote any Traveller programs, but I recently got the itch again, so who knows...

Still got a datacassette recorder and 3k memory expansion module for a VIC-20 sitting in the closet...

LOL - I give/throw away most things - even the LLBs that I still have are probably the 3rd/4th copies I purchased.

I have a few floppies from the GEOS days somewhere - was even offered a job with Berkley Softworks by the VP at the time - but I was still in HS - not to mention I probably annoyed him when I predicted IBM would turn on them and basically crush them in the PM Lite deal - which I had further guessed they were in at the time. Bet he changed his mind later

 

[hdan]

I did most of my trav coding in Forth on my Apple//c. Though they're long gone now, I had a pretty cool setup for chargen that allowed you type thinks like "army man" or "10 navy men", and it would generate the appropriate UPPs and skill lists. IIRC, it would run the chargen until you either had to leave or some predetermined age limit was reached. Since I used the Spinward Marches, I never really did any worldgen, and my computer wasn't in the same place as we gamed, so refereeing tools weren't useful to me.

 

[BP]

Forth is a nice language - sadly haven't used it in many, many moons. My traveller aids were done in numerous languages from asm to prolog - and I did do an NPC generator in Forth once! But, my NPC generators always just spit out hundreds of characters and I picked through the list - nice approach you had.

Ten years ago, I wrote a world map to globe maker (it 'folded' the world map onto a sphere) in OpenGL that let one orbit and zoom in and out around the virtual world. Sadly, lacked time to make it into a full worldgen app.

Just remembered one of the more interesting aids - a friend had a Hero-Jr that I programmed to speak out die role results. It was amusing, but not all that useful, of course.

 

[Vile]

Is it just me, or do the Mongoose forums experience more thread drift than any others?

Mind you, in most cases this seems to have been a Good Thing!

 

[BP]

Well, I started this one... :roll:

And I'd call it more a major course change than a drift... and yeah - in this case it was a Good Thing!

(If you get my drift...)

 

[rust]

Is it just me, or do the Mongoose forums experience more thread drift than any others?

Well, this is a high tech forum, it uses only the latest SSTs (Self Seeking
Threads) in "Post & Forget" mode, and they automatically detect and ap-
proach the nearest interesting subject. 8)

 

[serene_muse]

The Mongoose deckplans start out as bitmaps so nope, sure don't. Reign of Discordia deckplans started life as vector images but only bitmaps where used in final product...

(headdesk)

While Mongoose's goal of all ships have deckplans etc. is admirable, this sort of thing renders the PDF versions nigh useless. Especially since most of them aren't even printable let alone zoomable on a computer monitor.

(bigbigsigh)

 

[Baron_Vulk_Morden]

Same gag, pretty much, year after year. What does this say about T5?

I said long ago that what T5 needs is for Marc to hand the whole gigantic mess over to someone who can cull a playable game out of it. At present it's just an ever-spreading morass of tables for this, that, and everything else.

It would probably be posible to take the core of T5 and make a good (simple and playable) game out of it, then build the rest into a range of supplements to cover all kinds of things. There's already enough there to fuel a very, very long string of supplements, and if Marc wants to continue codifying every possible thing then he could get on with that while the actual game is being produced.

This would need the services of a writer who can turn the dry table-fest that is T5 into a game that today's generation of gamers would want to play.

So, Mongoose Traveller, in other words?

 

[nats]

A lot of the Mongoose stuff is useless. It seems to be getting to be the case that they are releasing stuff just for the hell of it. That terrible Fighting Ships Supplement was bloody awful - absolutely useless.

I sure hope T5 gets back to the simplity of the 5 main Classic Traveller rules books and gets referees freedom to design and imagine again.

I personally think that the reason traveller went down hill was strongly to do with the Journals, the sheer amount of new rules, and the inflexibility of the storyline that Classic Traveller got lumbered with. It got to the point where you couldnt play the game without wading through several rules books, several journals and considered several aspects of the main storyline.

I know I just liked playing Traveller to fight battles, play sci-fi, visit worlds, run spaceships etc. All the rest of the stuff was just unnecessary fluff. I really hope if it is ever released that T5 gets back to the inherent simplicity of the early Traveller books.

 

[kristof65]

You know, in reading through all this, it occurs to me that the next version of Traveller (T6?) really should be a core book with a disc full of spreadsheets.

 

[nats]

You know, in reading through all this, it occurs to me that the next version of Traveller (T6?) really should be a core book with a disc full of spreadsheets.

It needs to be a simple system for the basic actions with associated spreadsheets keeping things as generic as possible. Then each adventure or addon should be inherently self contained - so if you buy High Guard for example it should enable you to play large spaceship game without Mercenary, only using the basic rules. Similarly if you buy Mercanary you should be ablte to play a large combine forces battle game using only that and the basic rules. If you buy an adventure it should have everything you need to play it included.

If new rules come out they should be capable of being taken out and bound together with the basic rules in a ringbinder so you always have a set of complete rules split into separate distinct sections, and not like Mongoose where rules are put all over the place.

I suppose what I am suggesting is a modular system that expands sensibly and takes into account future expansion and possible third party addons in a sensible way.

And it goes without saying that any new system should come also with a disk of deck plans and tables, and rules summary sheets so you can play the game and create your own plans and referee shields yourself.

I definitely feel that Traveller has a lot of scope but lets get back to the basic generic game and forget about the storyline and complexity. L:ets not forget referees are human beings not computers, we have a limited memory and limited time to play, we dont want to spend time digging in loads of different books for obscure rules.