T5 Announcement!

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that really wasn't my point...

At this point in time, computers are cheap and portable enough that an RPG rule system doesn't really need to be sold as a bunch of books with a bunch of complex tables and charts.

One could publish an RPG rule system that was very complex, but use something like a spreadsheet or computer program to hide all that complexity from the GM and players.
 
I think that most of the fun comes in doing thing yourself as referee and players. Once you hide all that stuff you might as well go and play a multiplayer computer game for all the enjoyment you will get out of it.

I agree with using PCs to perhaps help design ships and planets etc as an option but it should never replace the manual method of paper and dice. Boardgames are seeing a resurgence becuase of this very fact - that people like to throw dice and move tokens around. People dont like it all done for you like in a computer game.

Sure there are a lot of kids who havent experienced real RPG gaming due to computer gaming and they know no better unfotunately, hiopefully this resurgence in boardgaming will help with that. PC games leave very little room for imagination.
 
I meant the design stuff done between sessions - character building, weapons stats, creating worlds, vehicles, animals, etc - or very complex stuff done in game - trading/buying/selling, etc.

The bulk of the Traveller rules are actually for building all that stuff - and they really are tasks that are easier for a computer to handle, leaving just the fun parts for the GM and players.

FREX, the High Guard design sequences could be sold as a spreadsheet/computer program/web service, rather than a book - allowing people to quickly/easily create tons of ships yet have far more complexity going on behind the scenes in building them, thus creating unique designs with far more personality. Things like what world a ship was built on could be factored in without adding another 30 pages of charts a referee or player would have to consult.

World building is something else that could be completely automated, with UPPs of 50-500 digits that the GM/Players never have to see, because the computer would spit out actual descriptive text based on far more variables than are currently used.
 
I think all the various bits are enjoyable to do, I wouldnt want a computer doing them. But I am sure it would be very easy to construct spreadsheets for doing all those things if you wanted to.

My point in this and other recent posts is that once a rules system becomes so complex that you need a computer to do the 'work' for you and handle all the various construction sequences and lists of equipment (as Mongoose Traveller is becoming) it just isnt all that much fun at the end of the day.

I found this with PC flight sims actually and it was probably their downfall - they got so complex that you just couldnt play a game in a few hours. It took two hours just to play one mission and if you left the game for a while you forgot all the key presses and had to completely relearn the game.

Same goes for Traveller - the real world is already so complex and work these days is so stressful - who wants all that when you come home to play a game?? Who wants to wade through six books of rules variations after work when you have 2-3 hours spare to play a game. Not me.
 
nats said:
Same goes for Traveller - the real world is already so complex and work these days is so stressful - who wants all that when you come home to play a game??
This is exactly why I made my first comment.

Yes, there are a lot of us who enjoy Traveller for the design systems - I loved CT's Striker and the later Fire, Fusion and Steel books for that exact reason. But you can only get so complex before it drags down the enjoyment of the real purpose of an RPG - Role Playing a character.

So why not let a computer handle all that stuff? Many of us already do - we build our own design spreadsheets, write our own programs, buy and/or use character builder programs, etc. In fact, that's where a lot of the "flaws" in the various design systems come to light - the fans who try and use the published rules to automate stuff wind up finding all the design compromises the designers made to retain playability.

If I were the game designer of the next edition of Traveller, I would seriously ask myself "What can we automate to make things more complex and yet retain an elegant simplicity that makes play fun?" As far as Traveller is concerned, the very first thing I'd automate would be the vehicle, ship and world design systems. I'd make them as complex and as complete as possible, but I'd use carefully designed spreadsheets/programs to mask all of that complexity, so that all the GM has to do is make a set of choices, and get a set of stats.
 
If I were the designer of the next Traveller I would try to remember we are all human and I would create a simple basic game with rules that can be played without having to resort to too much complexity. My system would have a few small (light) rules books and I would put everything important in those. And then any additions would be to expanding the scene not the rules. Its how we all remember playing the Classic Traveller and it worked. You can get too much complexity.

If a games rules cannot be summarised on a referee screen then its unplayable in my view.

By all means have adventures books and lists of predetermined characters etc but keep the rules to a minimum so we dont all implode with the info overload.
 
nats said:
A lot of the Mongoose stuff is useless. It seems to be getting to be the case that they are releasing stuff just for the hell of it. That terrible Fighting Ships Supplement was bloody awful - absolutely useless.

I sure hope T5 gets back to the simplity of the 5 main Classic Traveller rules books and gets referees freedom to design and imagine again.

Mate, if you think T5 will be simpler than MGT or core CT (and CT had more than 5 rulebooks)...well I'd suggest you try the beta (or save your money and ask around, look for reviews). A cd full of rules chock full of charts, options and stuff. Before it's even published fully and before the first supplement. Remember, Mongoose Traveller is a *subset* of T5, which will be the full blown deal, though at this point I'm not sure how 1:1 compatible they'll be, considering T5 isn't out out yet and MGT's been out for a few years now.

Me I just use Mongoose Traveller core. That's all I need and it works just fine by itself. If I were to use CT I'd houserule it so much I might as well just use MGT core anyway. And just because something's published doesn't mean I need to buy or use it. (shrugs)
 
And no Fluff, story or background out side of what Jump Space is really looks like, is to be found in T5.

Of course I have not been involved with it for a year but others tell me there still is no fluff.

Dave Chase
 
andrew boulton said:
I do keep trying to make T5 fluffier. There will be fluff :)

Good Luck. :)

I would love to help, but you know why I can't. (sigh)

Note: The fluff that we are referring to is not silly yet interesting, odd ball things found in Traveller, but the stuff that one would except in a RPG or game books besides just charts, tables and formulas.

Dave Chase
 
Well, for me Mongoose Traveller pretty much addressed all the points I was looking at while writing my own revision to Trav (I was stripping back MegaTraveller to try to make it actually work rather than to revise 1st/2nd edition, but what the hey...)

I'd even come independently come up with the same characteristic mod table. Freaky, eh?
 
A recent Marc Miller interview touches upon T5. I've linked to the source and provided the full T5 quote so you can read in context. Take it as you will. I'm glad Marc Miller's finally actually speaking, just wish he'd do a bit more speaking or at least be more clear & consistent on the delegation of authority. My take is at the end.

http://www.blackgate.com/2010/05/02/interview-with-marc-miller-part-ii-of-ii/

Tell us about the future.

We’re currently working on T5, the fifth edition of Traveller. It’s supposed to be the ultimate, the be all and end all. In a sense all of this stuff we have done for the past 30 years is playtesting on a fine scale and on a gross scale, and all of that activity has been lessons that have helped us structure what we’re finally doing. Let me give you one example. Fire, Fusion and Steel was this vast attempt to show how to use the laws of physics and design rules to create anything you want in the way of equipment. The rules are wonderful reference material, but they don’t give much guidance and they have proven to be less effective than they should be in creating equipment and weapons that we want to use. In Traveller 5, we have thrown that all aside in favor of a series of what we call Makers. We have a Vehicle Maker, a Gun Maker, even a Knife Maker. They are tables to roll on, or to pick from, that end up giving you a wide variety of possible weapons and equipment, that do a wide variety of possible things.

It sounds like 76 Patrons.

That was a lot of patrons, but in that case each patron stood alone. Here’s the difference. Classic Traveller has this advanced combat rifle which is what a lot of soldiers carry. In T5, by looking at how you can customize it, we end up with 82 different varieties of Advanced Combat Rifle depending upon which choices you make, each of which has some benefit, or detriment, with regards to the others.

I don’t think you’ll have much trouble explaining that concept to anyone who plays Modern Warfare 2 and agonizes over the Bling Pro options. So, when is T5 scheduled for release?

So, the people with whom I am working tell me that I can’t say anything about when T5 is coming out because giving timetables doesn’t work. It’s basically in beta, we have a disc of about 550 pages of everything you need to know about making this work in people’s hands now. It’s incomplete, but it’s workable and we are going through and fixing every little detail that need to be fixed, and revising all the things that don’t work as well as they should. That text will support anyone who wants to play Traveller. It covers everything that you saw in Classic Traveller, Megatraveller and the other systems. It’s meant to be a support text for adventures which become rules-independent. So often you read adventures and they start telling you rules in the middle of the adventure to cover things that hadn’t been thought of in the construction of the original rules. We’re really working at making this cover most all of the situations that you’ll need so that you’ll be able to play an adventure without having to have the rules written into it.

What are you looking at doing for the storyline? Earlier, you were saying that some of the reasons Traveller didn’t fly as high as it might have before was because the story elements were not as rigid as was the case in the more successful RPG systems. Is that something you’re looking at addressing as well?

Certainly we are. We have something we call the Epic Adventure system. It’s not complex, but it’s too complex to get into detail here. Here’s how it works. It gives you a series of stages or episodes that have to be resolved. When you have completed your quota of those episodes, you have enough information to do the final resolution of the adventure. It’s possible to play two or three of these adventures at the same time, doing an episode from this one and an episode from that one, and only when you reach the point that you have all of the information you need in order to resolve everything, does the referee carry you into the final resolution. But the players don’t necessarily know that this encounter is involved in Adventure One or Adventure Two.

All they know is that they have to go and collect 15 wolf pelts?

Yes, yes, yes… I think so often that’s what people have to do. It’s so arbitrary, you have to go out and collect 15 wolf pelts. But the example I give is to imagine the solar system, a classic pulp science fiction solar system, and you have to go to the solar power fields of Mercury because the referee knows you have to get something there. If you’re a naval crew, your ship is sent there. If you’re a trader, you have a contract to go there. If you’re a soldier, your orders take you there. You’re under the thumb of the referee who guides you because he is assumed to be competent. So, you do these three or four tasks, visiting Mars, Mercury, Venus and whatever, and once you have completed those things, you are ready to go to the middle game where you have things you have to resolve. And by the time you’ve done that, you have every piece of equipment, every piece of knowledge, every fact that you need to now find the secret jump drive research base that’s going to invent jump drive and you have all the clues that will help them get past the scientific impasse. You participate in that final leap to the stars. But how you get there is resolved by the referee. The adventure is essentially rules-independent, you could play it with Classic Traveller, Megatraveller, or Traveller 5 rules. Traveller 5 is the ideal one because it provides the most detail, but the point is that the adventure is full of adventure and background information for the adventure, not rules. We think it’s exciting because it really enables people to play, and that’s what we want people to do, to play.

A knife maker, tons of tables, 82 possible varieties of ACRs, an Epic Adventure System that's not complex but too complex to explain in detail in two long paragraphs, incomplete at 550 pages in Beta and "Traveller 5 is the ideal one because it provides the most detail". Not holding my breath in anticipation as this is not my cuppa, but thanks for the interview, it was good, hope to see more!
 
"In T5, by looking at how you can customize it, we end up with 82 different varieties of Advanced Combat Rifle ..."
Well, to handle something like that would be my personal referee's night-
mare, I could never remember all of them (and these are only the 82 dif-
ferent ACRs ...) and hate it to have to interrupt a game in order to look
something up - definitely not for me.
"You’re under the thumb of the referee who guides you because he is assumed to be competent."
Another thing I hate is "railroading", forcing the players into specific ac-
tions of their characters instead of leaving them the choice what to do
next - again, definitely not for me.
 
I kind of see where Marc and T5 are going, but I don't think it will wind up selling well if it's published as most RPGs are - a set of core books with add-ons. T5 looks like it would do better in a format similar to what I mentioned previously - a simple set of core rules covering combat and tasks, and series of programs/spreadsheets/etc for the GM and players to create things like PCs and equipment, then distills the rules they need for play down to a couple of sheets of paper.

Basically, hide all those tables and charts behind a computer program with a slick GUI interface, and cut the core printed rules down to standard sized RPG book. That way during play, all you need is the core book, and the custom sheets created for the PCs and their equipment, plus anything the GM needs for their adventure.
 
kristof65 said:
...

Basically, hide all those tables and charts behind a computer program with a slick GUI interface, and cut the core printed rules down to standard sized RPG book. That way during play, all you need is the core book, and the custom sheets created for the PCs and their equipment, plus anything the GM needs for their adventure.

Actually this is (was) being done during playtesting. And talk was that if you bought the CD of T5 that a refined/finished version of said programs would be included with it.

They work(ed) fairly well and in some cases made things much easier. That being said, the T5 tables did not always allow you to recreated something from a previous edition.

Also they had a TL level difference in how much damage an item could take or create. Along with efficiencies being a bit better on some power sources at the higher TL.

Dave Chase
 
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