Streamlined Advancement for Conan

[SableWyvern]

Hi all.

One of my plans with Conan was to greatly slow down the rate of character advancement as compared to the d20 standard. Given that I had not run a slow-advancement game (any system) in some time, and some of my players have never experienced such a thing (oh, and my last campaign was a level-a-book Lone Wolf game), I thought that some of the players may find this a little frustrating.

After pondering how I might mitigate this potential problem, I came up with a solution that, after two sessions, has been lauded by my players.

I have taken all the class-based abilities and improvements available at each level and given them each a % cost. The % is applied to the total XP required for the next level, to determine the XP cost for each ability or improvment.

As an example, a character who is taking level 2 of Barbarian at his 2nd character level will have the following costs:

+1 BAB: 113
+1 Dodge: 98
+1 Parry: 98
+1 Will: 98
Trap Sense: 98
Endurance: 98
Class Skill: 38

(Total XP required for level 2 under my system is 750, btw).

"Class skill" refers to any skill rank bought with class skill points, as opposed to those gained from high Intelligence. Bonus skill ranks, character feats, favoured class feats and hp are only gained on actually reaching the next level. (Basically, because I can't factor variable Int bonuses into the table, and the levels at which feats are gained will vary with multiclassing and depending on favoured classes. As far as hp are concerned, there's no particularly good reason I kept them out. These things could certainly be added with some Excell-fu, but I couldn't be bothered with the extra work required, and the system seems to already work well as-is.)

The framework for the system is basically that gaining all available skill points uses 20% of total XP, and the remaining increases are costed pretty much evenly, with BAB usually getting any left-over XP added on. For levels with no or few bonuses appart from skill points, I've generally upped the costs for skill points a bit. A few abilities, such as Bite Sword, I've discounted in cost, as having more flavour value than hard mechanical benefits.

Anyway, this allows players to advance their characters fairly regularly, even if they are only going up levels rarely, and also gives them more difficult choices they have to make -- do I want to increase my BAB or Dodge now? Or gain 3 skill ranks? If I've got a few unspent XP, do I get a skill rank now, or save for a Fort bonus later?

As I've stated, my players quite like the system, and I just thought I'd share with you all.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Forgive me Sable, but I think this may be a mistake.

(not the mechanics of what you are proposing, but the concept)

I've been running Conan since it has come out, with great success. One of the key differences in this campaign is my definate LACK of tracking experience points. I decide when the players go up a level, and I decide which classes are available. (IE, no taking Pirate when you are stuck in the desert...I only restrict the obvious)

Instead of this seeming heavy handed, it has been a source of excitement for the group. We go up about once per 'adventure', which gives everyone a sense of accomplishment. No more do they 'just fall short'. Also, no more do they 'hit a level grind' They know, if they perform well, they get the reward.

Mind you, we are all adults with full time jobs and young people in our life. Having the flexibility to really enjoy all of the offerings this game has to offer in a year gives us the chance to not worry so much if something happens or we choose to retire our characters and move on to others.

In the long run, slowing your campaign down will ultimately wear it thin. Players will look longingly on those cool combat maneuvers or feats they just can't get yet...and it will be ages before they can get them.

No, I advocate - whole heartedly - speeding the game up. Let your players advance, and advance the story with them. Then let them retire and do it all over again with different PC's...

Oh, and write about it here

Good Luck Sable - in the end, it's what is best for you and your group...but I hope I have given you something else to ponder.

 

[SableWyvern]

Interesting take.

As I mentioned, I just finished a Lone Wolf game where the advancement rate was one level a book (which in most situations equated to one every 6-8 hour session).

However, rapid power-scaling really doesn't fit with my concept for this game, or with the way I best run gritty games in general.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into an argument with you over the matter (as any differences in opinion probably boils down to differing styles rather than any objective right or wrong), but I can assure you that I will pick up the pace of advancement if I feel the players are becoming bored, frustrated or disillusioned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

No problem...I understand differences in stylel and know you'll do what's best for you and your group...I'm not the kind of guy to fall on my sword about stuff like this...just sharing my thoughts.

 

[Sutek]

I guess my only question is what did you base the values on? Doesn't it unfavorably hamper classes that have more level by level special abilities? What about a Soldier that simply has open Feat slots each level? Did you make a percent cost for each Feat?

I did the latter at one point something like this:

Feat cost = (CharLVL + Number of feats total + placement of feat in Feat Tree) x 300

Great cleave for a 5th level Soldier with 4 previous feats would cost ((5 + 4 + 3)x300)= 3600xp

Feats gained for free by class dont' cost, but other feats do. This mitigates taking feats at level up because the cost might reduce the incoming xp too much to actually achieve the new level.

Never tried it though, so I dont' know how well it might work.

 

[SableWyvern]

Everything that can be gained over the course of the level (excluding, character feats, favoured class feats, bonus skill points and hp) are given a % value, with the total being 100%.

So, yeah, if you only have three things to gain in a level, your costs will be higher than someone who has eight things to gain. Of course, this is no different whatsoever than a character gaining three abilities on reaching a new level, as opposed to another gaining eight.

Given that, at exactly the XP required for any particular level, characters under this system will be identical to those of the same level under the default system, I can't see this providing anyone with an advantage. Again, if there are any advantages, they are already inherrent in the default structure, not these rules.

Oh, and Soldier Feats can be purchased under this system, as they are directly tied to Soldier advancement and can be objectively quantified regardless of character level or favoured class.


To provide more detail regarding the calculations that went into the Barbarian above:

- 750XP required for level 2.
- 20% of XP go towards skills. With four skill points available, this means 5% for each, with a final result of 38XP per skill point.
- This leaves 6 abilites to split between the remaining 80%. An even split means 13% for each, with 2% left over.
- The 2% gets added on to BAB (no particular reason for choosing BAB, it just seemed like BAB would be a popular choice so I thought I'd add the left-overs there).
- Dodge, Parry, Will, Trap Sense and Endurance, at 13% of 750, cost 98XP each.
- BAB with 15% costs 113XP.

 

[Sutek]

So, yeah, if you only have three things to gain in a level, your costs will be higher than someone who has eight things to gain. Of course, this is no different whatsoever than a character gaining three abilities on reaching a new level, as opposed to another gaining eight.

So some one going up a level and gaining 3 abilities of some sort would pay one ammount, but another character reaching the same character level, but in a class that has 5 abilities, would ahve to "pay" more experience points?

That's not going to work because it doesn't take into account gaps in advancement (levels where no bonus feat is gained by a Soldier, for example), HD differentiation (also an aspect of class/leveling), Skill points (more points for higher INT characters - discounts maybe?). I just think you're going to leave stuff out, plus the way that the abilities are stratified now is supposedly ballanced over the long term. In other words, at 1-6 progression might look all out of whack and biased towards certain classes, but it starts to level out after that and then swings back the other way in some cases at levels 14-20.

- 750XP required for level 2.
- 20% of XP go towards skills. With four skill points available, this means 5% for each, with a final result of 38XP per skill point.
- This leaves 6 abilites to split between the remaining 80%. An even split means 13% for each, with 2% left over.
- The 2% gets added on to BAB (no particular reason for choosing BAB, it just seemed like BAB would be a popular choice so I thought I'd add the left-overs there).
- Dodge, Parry, Will, Trap Sense and Endurance, at 13% of 750, cost 98XP each.
- BAB with 15% costs 113XP.

SO the values, you percentages, are essentially just arbitrary? It doesn't look like they are going to be reflective of the abiility they are purchasing (eg. is great cleave more expensive than cleave?)

 

[Trodax]

Sutek, I think you've misunderstood Sable's system. It is (if I've understood it correctly ) not at all that different from the normal level-gain system. Its just that the abilities and such that you get for each level are spread out, so you receive them a little at a time. As I've understood it, it doesn't at all mess with the balance between the classes; a character that has just hit a new level of any class will be exactly the same with the normal system as with Sable's.

Sable, I personally think your system is pretty elegant. I wouldn't use it myself since I'm more in line with Arkobla Conn's style (basically just handing out a new level when appropriate), but I can see how it would be a good thing in your slow-advancement game. Out of curiosity, how slow-advancing are we talking about? A level each five sessions? Twenty?

 

[SableWyvern]

Yeah, we seem to be misuderstanding each other, Sutek. Dunno why, but we seem to do that fairly frequently. :?

Trodax seems to have grasped what I'm getting at.

I'll try being a little clearer, and take two very simplistic examples to compare against each other.

Taking level 2 of Hypotheticalclass1:
There are three abilities available. Total XP required to advance from level 1 to level 2 is 750. Thus, each ability costs 250XP.

Taking level 2 of Hypotheticalclass2:
There are five abilities available. Total XP required to advance from level 1 to level 2 remains at 750. Thus, each ability costs 150XP.

The "abilities available" are those already built into the class, and which are normally gained at level up.

The values are arbitary to an extent. As stated, gaining all the available skill points pretty much always costs 20% of total XP. The costs for everything else are usually an even split of the remainder. Initially, I had been trying to rate each ability in comparison to others, but decided that I didn't really have the time or knowledge base to make such distinctions. I have rated Magical Attack bonus as inferior (and thus, cheaper) for everyone but the Scholar. Bite Sword I decided was of limited actual utility, and I also made this cheaper. And, as I have mentioned, I have added any remainders on to BAB costs, as BAB increase comes close to being a must have first choice for most players.

It's possible that our misunderstanding lies in an implication or inference that XP expenditure on abilities is an unlimited and sole form of advancement. This is not the case. A first level character can only purchase 2nd level abilities for his next class (or first level abilities if he is changing to a new class). They cannot forgo some of these abilities to move on to third level abilities or increases.

A very, very simple form of this system would be to say that a character gains all the BAB, Dodge and Parry bonuses for the next level at the half-way point to reaching that level, and then gains the remainder of his improvements on actual levelling. All I have done is break this principle down into a smoother, more gradual progression.

Trodax: The general rule of thumb I am working on is around 250-350 XP per session being a reasonable sum (ie, if the session runs smoothly and the players all put in, but nothing exceptional happens, they should count on about 300).

At this rate, level-ups should occur as follows:

Level 2 -- 3 sessions
Level 3 -- 5 sessions
Level 4 -- 9 sessions
Level 5 -- 12 sessions
Level 6 -- 17 sessions
Level 7 -- 22 sessions
Level 8 -- 29 sessions
Level 9 -- 35 sessions
Level 10 -- 44 sessions

For context, we're talking typically about 6-8 hour sessions, 20 sessions a year.

Whether I stick closely to that schedule, or become more generous, remains largely unknown at this point. After two sessions, the balance looks quite fine; naturally it remains to be seen whether the slow-down later is too dramatic or not. The breakdown I've listed above is merely a projection of what will happen under present circumstances, not some kind of ideal I feel needs to be maintained regardless of other factors.

The projected rate of advance is quite similar to what I would normally expect from a Rolemaster game (something I've only just noticed, actually); how well it suits Conan will become apparent in the coming months.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

At this rate, level-ups should occur as follows:

Level 2 -- 3 sessions
Level 3 -- 5 sessions
Level 4 -- 9 sessions
Level 5 -- 12 sessions
Level 6 -- 17 sessions
Level 7 -- 22 sessions
Level 8 -- 29 sessions
Level 9 -- 35 sessions
Level 10 -- 44 sessions

For context, we're talking typically about 6-8 hour sessions, 20 sessions a year.

.

OK, now we come to it. 6-8 hour sessions is not something my group can do. We are all deep into our 30's (sigh) and have family, home and work obligations. We can only get together 1 time per week, for 3 hour sessions. Every session you've read summarized here was done in those 3 hours. At that rate, it would take us 4 years (using the method described above) to get to level 10. Instead, we've gotten there in 9 months. And when we retire the characters in another 3 months or so, we'll move on to others...either in Conan, or for a time, in another game.

I'm still fuzzy on why you want to keep the goods from the players for so long...as the skills they get in the upper levels are just too cool...but if you have the luxury of time, as stated above...then I begin to understand.

Best of luck!

 

[SableWyvern]

My basic reason for slowing things down is to keep everything a little more low-key.

If most of the world's population tops out at around 6th level, keeping the PCs from escalating into the higher levels (11+) enables me to keep the threat level appropriate without having higher level NPCs suddenly appear to present a challenge. It also makes supernatural entities scarier.

The net result is that I don't have to explain away the mysterious absence or lack of activity of potent foes early on (they are few in number, and will remain that way for the campaign's duration).

Towards the end of the campaign, it is quite possible things will speed up a bit to help create a real sense of accomplishment and power amongst the players as they bow out (keeping especially in mind any cool powerups they have been really hanging out for).

I'm fairly fortunate with my group regarding scheduling. The average age is probably around 27, with 33ish being the upper end, and although attendance from some players is sporadic, we can still get in two fairly extensive sessions most months. If it makes you feel any better, there is no way we could manage a session every week (of any length), though.

I've always played in long sessions (although the weekend marathons of yore are long past), and the idea of playing for only 3 or 4 hours just doesn't sit well with me, or suit the play style that I have developed. Of course, that might just mean we screw around too much. :?

 

[S'mon]

For Conan I'd think taking about as many (4 hr) sessions to gain a level as that level (2 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd, 4 for 4th etc) would be about right, up to 10th. To me the game doesn't really seem structured for play beyond 10th, YMMV.

Edit: with occasional XP dumps of say +1000 XP for exceptional accomplishments. But generally a bit under 1000 XP/session. If playing 8 hours or very rarely or to 20th, a bit under 2000 XP/session - basically what Ian says in the rulebook.

 

[Sutek]

I guess I'm just too old school and say that this is a situation where "system" isnt' required and the GM simply saying "To get that though you're going to need to go find someplace or someone to learn it from."

I see what you're doing, but like I've said, arbitrary percentile values (or an even split, however you want look at it) makes some abilities less valuable than they need to be and vice versa.

If you have 1 ability split between 750xp, then you have another character that gainst 2 abilities between 750xp, suddenly it looks like the Barbarian's Versatility at 7th level is worth twice as much as the Pariate's Bite Sword or Ferocious Attack at the same level-up. Not only that but Bite Sword and Ferocious Attack are deemed "equal value" (which they are now anyway, of course) but also of equal value to a 7th level Scholar's Advanced Spell and/or bonus spell.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Scholars improve incrementally, but it's always upward and the power level starts of really paltry and then gets horrendously powerful. Barbarians have a more even advancement, and soldiers have the most even advancement, but they can take whatever feats they like. This system equates 100% open option feat selection as the same "point value" as Bite Sword in some cases and I just don't see that as fair or balanced. Yes, everyone ultimately pays the right amount of points for it all, but the staggering of free feats and bonus abilities is figured out pretty well already so that one class is balanced to the next; it's the structure of the d20 system.

I think your idea is inspired, but it's not taking into account the fact that stuff is already ballanced.

 

[SableWyvern]

Hmmm ... I really would like to understand why we disagree so fundamentally so often.

From my perspective, I have already considered that the system starts balanced -- a core principle I am working on is that the system is balanced, and that this system doesn't alter that balance.

Training, OTOH, is an entirely seperate issue; I can't see how they are related at all (yes, they're both advancement issues, but I think that questions of training requirements would apply equally to both the Conan default system and my own).

Essentially, I don't see my system affecting or upsetting balance in any way*. Ultimately, I'd guess we are just starting from completely different perspectives; it is fortunate that our individual decisions aren't going to effect each other's games. 8)

*Edit: Actually, I'd say that giving every available increase an identical cost for that class for that level would provide the perfect balance with the default rules -- as all the abilities available in a given level are already treated as equal with each other, insomuch as they are all gained at exactly the same XP point. IOW, looking at the second level of Barbarian (without considering what may be available at other levels), frex, the rules make absolutely no distinction between the value of the different power ups. It seems you disagree with that premise; I'd be interested to hear why (ie, how do the rules differentiate the values of a +1 BAB and the Bite Sword ability to a character just reaching second level? Not in play (where the differences are obvious), but in the way they are earned?).

 

[Sutek]

I think if it works for your group, then cool. I too nw see the time issue - you people arre playing a lot and advancing very quickly.

Try this: Don't give them any xp.

That's right, I said it - only give them xp for achieving goals, not for killing stuff, and all your speedy advancement issue vanish in a puff of logic. By not gaining xp they (A) find it imppossible to advance too quickly and (B) realize that they're still the same level and thus not gaining new HP and stuff like that.

The "buy in" system seems fine at first glance for a group that's playing so often, but I see a lot of problems later on. What if I buy just enough STR stat bonus and Feats to be dangerous and then don't want to spend the xp on anything else? Can i artificial,ly bypass certain abilities to put the cost of them towards more HP or better BAB? What about just adding more spells instead of increasing BAB.

Putting too much control lin the hands of the players sounds like a good idea at first, but it always backfires. I've been playing RPGs now for almost 30 years (sigh...I'm frigging old!!!) and the one thing that always works is to say "Well, no xp thins time because you keep encountering Picts and killing them, but you haven't learned anything new." The players will buy it and want to actually Role Play more.

I'd be interested to hear why (ie, how do the rules differentiate the values of a +1 BAB and the Bite Sword ability to a character just reaching second level? Not in play (where the differences are obvious), but in the way they are earned?).

Because he also gets a certain MAB and Parry and Dodge bonus at that level, and his saves go up and he gets more HP ased on class, etc.. It's not "Oh here's Bite Sword and +1BAB". There's all sorts of things to take into account. Do you charge a percentage for the extra Hit Die that a character gets when he levels up? It a level up bonus, just like Bite Sword, but if it's not worth an XP value, what is it? How/Why does it differ, as a level up award, to Bite Sword or increasd BAB, Parry, Dodge or Saves?

Here's another point: Is Bite Sword a 2nd level ability or a 7th level ability? Well, it depends on your Class. Barbarians get it a 2 but Pirates dont' get it until 7th. Why is this weird? Because at 7th level the Barbarian gets only one Special Ability: Versatility. This means hat the Priate abilityies are cheaper than the barbarian's at that level. As it is, straight from the table, both abilities are free - equal cost; you just get them when you reach 7th level. Pirates are written to gain more advantages at that experience level than Barbarians are, with respect to the Special Abilities gained. Your system essentially penalized the Pirateby making the gain later in his advancement, but makes the ability cost less (a benefit).

I'm not trying to sound like I'm coming down on you, it's just that I see disadvantages to the system rather than advantages, a lot of complication added where it's unnecessary, and certain classes being sort of jipped because they have to pay xp for stuff that they'd normally get for free based on some rather loose criteria and you arent' accounting for everything that can increasse and to waht degree it alters the mechanics of the character (Improved 2WPN fighting is going to affect things a lot different than Handle Animal, but they're both feats).

 

[SableWyvern]

What if I buy just enough STR stat bonus and Feats to be dangerous and then don't want to spend the xp on anything else?

Can't be done.

Can i artificial,ly bypass certain abilities to put the cost of them towards more HP or better BAB?

No

What about just adding more spells instead of increasing BAB.

Can't be done.



With those questions, I think we get to the crux of the misunderstanding.

Going back to my barbarian example, he is still limited to gaining +1 BAB once, +1 Dodge once, Bite Sword once, four skill points etc... When he gains enough experience for level 2, he has already gained some of the abilities he would get at level 2, and nothing that he would not be eligible for at level 2.

Any increases that have not yet been paid for are acquired, making him identical to any other 2nd level bararian. At this point, if he happens to have have enough XP beyond that which is required to reach 2nd level, he can begin purchasing increases for his next level.

In any case, there's definitely a misunderstanding somewhere, because the problems you are identifying simply don't exist.

A character with exactly enough experience for level 6 will be identical to a level 6 character with the same class(es) under the standard rules. A character with exactly enough experience for level 7 will be identical to a level 7 character with the same class(es) under the standard rules. The only difference is that a character between level 6 and 7 may already have gained some of his level 7 increases under my system.

That's right, I said it - only give them xp for achieving goals, not for killing stuff, and all your speedy advancement issue vanish in a puff of logic. By not gaining xp they (A) find it imppossible to advance too quickly and (B) realize that they're still the same level and thus not gaining new HP and stuff like that.

That, however, misses the entire point of my system -- which is to slow down overall advancement, while still providing a sense of consistent mechanical character improvement.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

That, however, misses the entire point of my system -- which is to slow down overall advancement, while still providing a sense of consistent mechanical character improvement.

And, I think, you've missed ours...This game screams for NOT being so mechanical. Advance them when you want...instead of being an accountant, you get mystery...

 

[SableWyvern]

And, I think, you've missed ours...This game screams for NOT being so mechanical. Advance them when you want...instead of being an accountant, you get mystery...

Eh?

I thought that your position was simply that you see slow advancement as not suiting your style of play. I have no problem with that.

Players tend to like it when their characters power-up. I know mine do, and I'm guessing yours do to, based on your own posts in this thread, where you promote faster advancement.

I also thought we had agreed that neither slow advancement or fast was intrinsically wrong, and you have not previously expressed the idea that allowing various advances to be staggered somehow precludes mystery (??) or turns the game into an accounting excercise (I would think feat selection and the like already do far more to promote this kind of play).

So, I guess I'm not seeing why you suddenly appear so opposed to my system.

 

[Turim]

I agree the concept of buying level abilities piecemeal is a good way to give players that level-up feel in a campaign with greatly slowed level progression.

But one thing I don't understand is why you changed the XP needed for each level. Unlike in regular D&D, a DM in Conan the RPG has total control over how much XP he awards the players anyway. The only effect of this I can think of right now, is that it makes spells that cost XP even more expensive to cast. That's assuming it costs less XP to gain levels in your system, like in your level 2 example (750 XP). Unless there is something I'm missing here, this seems like a complication that isn't a necessary part of your system.

Also, I'd like to know how you handle spells that cost XP. I'll use the example of a level 8 scholar who chose Summon Demon between levels 7 and 8. Is this scholar forced to choose between saving his XP in case he needs to cast SD (thus missing out on piecemeal-abilities most of the long stretch between levels 8 and 9), or can he buy abilities and "return" them if he needs the XP for SD?

 

[Sutek]

What if I buy just enough STR stat bonus and Feats to be dangerous and then don't want to spend the xp on anything else?

Can't be done.

Can i artificial,ly bypass certain abilities to put the cost of them towards more HP or better BAB?

No

What about just adding more spells instead of increasing BAB.

Can't be done.
In any case, there's definitely a misunderstanding somewhere, because the problems you are identifying simply don't exist.

The "misunderstanding" is, in terms of my above questions, why not?

In other words, "Can't be done." is a fine response, but at fourth level when I get a Stat Bump, it costs me nothing under you plan. Therefore, if that's one of the things I want at the end of my 3rd level, trying to "buy ahead" as you describe, well...I can't. But why not? Because it's simply not one of the bits you've chosen to be available. Why not HP increase each level? If I can buy Great Cleave ahead of time becuase I have "excess XP" why can I not buy my next Hit Die worth of HPs too/instead?

You're allowing certain aspects of level-up to be pre-paid for, but not all of them - most likely because there's too bloody many things to keep track of. That's why (A) the advancement template is abstract and (B) control of XP allocation is up to the GM, especially so in Conan where the awards are entirely up to you. Give the party 300xp each for Picts slaying madness one encounter and only 100xp the next time round...because you say so.

:wink:

You just don't really need a system for that. Heck, keep track of XP in secret...then they'll have no idea where they're at...