Stopping for directions (Energy Mines & Stealth)

[Sulfurdown]

Ok, I reread the thread on rulesmasters about energy mines and breaking stealth in second edition and in the process started looking up the rules to determine the exact hubbub. I'm now failing to find where the rules allow energy mines to ignore stealth, though I'm fairly sure it's there and it just makes sense that they would.

Can someone direct me to some pages where it says the mines ignore stealth (or a forum link to the ruling)?

 

[Gregor]

e-mines can target an area of space, and the stealthed ships get caught up in the wash.

 

[Sulfurdown]

That's the approach I've always followed, but the energy mine says it automatically attacks every object within 3", ignoring Interceptors and Dodge. From that I'm assuming GEG, Shields, Adaptive Armour all still operate but it doesn't mention Stealth in that section.

 

[fuzzilogik]

I'm playing Minbari in my current campaign. All my helpful friends are showing me creative ways to reduce that darn stealth. Emines work really well. They may not do a lot of damage, but if you fire them first, you can usually get a hit or two and make if easier for the rest of the fleet to break stealth. Another tactic the EA taught me was to put 1 thunderbolt on each of my ships at range 4. Fire their missiles. Again, not doing much damage, but just trying to break stealth and get one hit in to make it easier for the rest of their ships.

 

[Karhedron]

Another tactic the EA taught me was to put 1 thunderbolt on each of my ships at range 4. Fire their missiles. Again, not doing much damage, but just trying to break stealth and get one hit in to make it easier for the rest of their ships.

Keeping a Nial or two with your ships is the easiest counter to this. Plus any that your opponent doesn't attack with T-bolts can act as interceptors if needed. Minbari fighters are expensive but this can be a lifesaver against dangerous weapons like missiles.

 

[Trotsky]

That's the approach I've always followed, but the energy mine says it automatically attacks every object within 3", ignoring Interceptors and Dodge. From that I'm assuming GEG, Shields, Adaptive Armour all still operate but it doesn't mention Stealth in that section.

As I understand it, the "automatically attacks every object within 3" " was the important part. Essentially, as I understand it, the stealth roll prevents attacks from ever taking place. Since the E-mines automatically attack everything, without having to target any specific ship, the result is not needing to roll for stealth.

 

[Greg Smith]

Another tactic the EA taught me was to put 1 thunderbolt on each of my ships at range 4. Fire their missiles. Again, not doing much damage, but just trying to break stealth and get one hit in to make it easier for the rest of their ships.

If you take out the anti-fighter, you can get fighters in base contact and they automatically break stealth and so make it easier. Or if you really have to reduce the stealth, put a number of fighters equal to the ship's AF dice plus one, into base contact.

 

[Sulfurdown]

That's the approach I've always followed, but the energy mine says it automatically attacks every object within 3", ignoring Interceptors and Dodge. From that I'm assuming GEG, Shields, Adaptive Armour all still operate but it doesn't mention Stealth in that section.

As I understand it, the "automatically attacks every object within 3" " was the important part. Essentially, as I understand it, the stealth roll prevents attacks from ever taking place. Since the E-mines automatically attack everything, without having to target any specific ship, the result is not needing to roll for stealth.

Very well might... I thought the automatic attack meant it rolled against everything without designating specific targets. The stealth seems to prevent successful attacks but not necessarily any attack - after all, weapons that miss the lock on are still considered fired, the attack is just expended 'harmlessly'.

 

[Ripple]

Unless slow loading under second ed....=/

Ripple

 

[Taran]

As I read the Stealth rules, it came across as you needed to lock on Before rolling to attack.
Especially after reading the part about Slow-Loading.

Of course, this doesn't jive right. If SL weapons get a pass on shooting because they lock on, then All weapons should. Else all weapons need to fire regardless of Stealth roll. There is nothing in the rules that suggest SL weapons are Streak SRMs, after all...

 

[Trotsky]

As I read the Stealth rules, it came across as you needed to lock on Before rolling to attack.
Especially after reading the part about Slow-Loading.

Well, I'm looking at the "After an attacker has declared any weapon attacks on this ship, a lock-on must be achieved" part. It says that the lock-on is rolled when an attack is declared on the ship, but E-mines attacks are declared on a point in space.

However, it does say that the ships in range will "automatically be attacked by the Energy Mine" so maybe it should roll for stealth to see if it can target the Minbari.

Edited because I can't form coherent sentences.

 

[Sulfurdown]

So there isn't a note in the books or ruling that energy mines ignore stealth?

 

[Taran]

I would seriously apply what is commonly misnamed "Common Sense" on this one...

An E-Mine is a Big Explosion consisting of pure energy. It doesn't matter how stealthy you are if you're caught up in something like that. You get hit. Now roll to see if it hurts you...

 

[Sulfurdown]

I would seriously apply what is commonly misnamed "Common Sense" on this one...

An E-Mine is a Big Explosion consisting of pure energy. It doesn't matter how stealthy you are if you're caught up in something like that. You get hit. Now roll to see if it hurts you...

Common Sense in most cases is no different the House Rules. Don't get me wrong, in the local games we operate under a great many common sense assumptions that are rarely questioned, but I've run into a lot of games where what was accepted as common sense turned out to be a misinterpretation of both the spirit and exact text of rules. After a lot of rereading I wouldn't expect energy mines to provide a stealth breaker bonus but they were ruled that they do (old discussion on the Rulemasters), just the same as I'd expect them to ignore stealth but what I'm looking for is something in the way the game is built, something I missed in the rules, not the fluff.

 

[Taran]

You wouldn't expect them to provide a stealth breaking bonus?
Why not?

The bonus is provided from the hit showing where the target is. If it gets hit by an EMine, you still have a better location for the target than before.

Not to mention any damage to the hull reducing any stealth properties built into said hull...

 

[Sulfurdown]

You wouldn't expect them to provide a stealth breaking bonus?
Why not?

The bonus is provided from the hit showing where the target is. If it gets hit by an EMine, you still have a better location for the target than before.

Not to mention any damage to the hull reducing any stealth properties built into said hull...

Most of the reasons are hashed out in the rulesmaster thread but my take was for three reasons;

1. That the stealth breaker bonus was the targeting information and the energy mine type weapon isn't a weapon that uses ship-targeting information, you just lob it close (or focus the energy close in the case of the PMR) and catch ships in the wash - hence the ship is targeting or attacking the energy mine's point, and then the energy mine attacks everything in range, not that the ship is attacking everything in the energy mine's range. That is a direct difference in opinion between myself and some of the views in the RM thread. (Also - the "Target that explosion" from Star Trek IIRC was centered around launching a specialized weapon that tracked down the cloaked ship and provided a relatively small explosion. Something of the difference between shooting at where a firecracker went off versus shooting at something somewhere in the blast radius of a nuclear weapon. Better idea of where to hit it but not what I would consider worth a 17% increase.)

2. That the Stealth score is an electronic countermeasure warfare from internal sources and not a surface coating which would be impaired by an energy blast wave (which is why a lot of scout ships with their advance sensor suites get stealth). Otherwise it would be a permanent stealth breaker bonus.

3. That as a game mechanic combination with what I assume is ignoring stealth, it provides not only a weapon immune to stealth but an automatic and potentially multiple benefit to everything else. Yes the energy mine doesn't crit but it does ignore interceptors and dodge and has an area impact that balances those benefits/penalties.

I view the auto-antistealth/stealth breaker as extra and as a combination a little over the top (though auto-antistealth alone both makes sense and to me, isn't over the top). The only other method of automatically ignoring stealth and providing an SBB to the fleet is by fighter base contact, but that's balance by how close the fighter is to all the active weapon systems and AF. My $0.02 on it though it was ruled on.

All of this did, however, spark off the realization of how many assumptions I was making in the game and a re-evaluation of how many game rules and terms I really understood (like the actual definition of an Attack versus a Successful Attack). Before I could put up a reasonable thought, I wanted to make sure I was grounded which lead me in search of what the rules say can and can't be done, particularly with mines.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

OK, I'm going to present my take on the e-mine vs. stealth questions. For my own edification, let me know where I have it wrong... (gently please...)

First of all, e-mines are never targeted. The rulebook says

When fired, nominate a point in space that is within range and the appropriate fire arc.

So we should never refer to targeting a ship/area of space. Targeting is not a part of using e-mines.

Second, after reviewing rulings on this and similar matters, I find that an "attack" is defined as rolling AD in an attempt to damage a target. A failed stealth roll prevents you from rolling AD against the designated target. Thus stealth prevents the attack from ever being made. It is not an unsuccessful attack, by the rules of the game no attack has been made.

Third,

Every object within 3" of this point will automatically be attacked by the Energy Mine.

The automatically is the important part here. Basically nothing stops you from rolling AD when using e-mines. You never check for stealth because everything is automatically attacked.

Fourth, as far as e-mines helping to break stealth, we do similar things all the time today. Set off an explosion and then analyze the shock and sound waves it produced to find out about things that we can't see otherwise (oh look, there's oil 1 1/2 mile down in this spot...). I've always assumed that the ships in the fleet are analyzing the characteristics of the explosion rather than trying to directly see the stealthy ship.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Taran]

No kidding. That's a lot of assumptions right there.

Well, I'll assume the RM thread answered them all for you, but for future reference for other games as well...

Most of the reasons are hashed out in the rulesmaster thread but my take was for three reasons;

1. That the stealth breaker bonus was the targeting information and the energy mine type weapon isn't a weapon that uses ship-targeting information, you just lob it close (or focus the energy close in the case of the PMR) and catch ships in the wash - hence the ship is targeting or attacking the energy mine's point, and then the energy mine attacks everything in range, not that the ship is attacking everything in the energy mine's range. That is a direct difference in opinion between myself and some of the views in the RM thread. (Also - the "Target that explosion" from Star Trek IIRC was centered around launching a specialized weapon that tracked down the cloaked ship and provided a relatively small explosion. Something of the difference between shooting at where a firecracker went off versus shooting at something somewhere in the blast radius of a nuclear weapon. Better idea of where to hit it but not what I would consider worth a 17% increase.)

Well, the Star Trek thing was a heat seeker and they were targeting what amounted to the detonation of a low-yield nuke.
But you have to keep in mind that, while EMines simulate nuclear explosions, they are also very low yield as far as that goes. Furthermore, these ships are pretty bloody big. Analyzing the explosion, as SKJ said, would give you a really good idea of where and how fast the ship is.

2. That the Stealth score is an electronic countermeasure warfare from internal sources and not a surface coating which would be impaired by an energy blast wave (which is why a lot of scout ships with their advance sensor suites get stealth). Otherwise it would be a permanent stealth breaker bonus.

Stealth is not a pure EW effect. Though EW certainly helps. It also requires certain qualities of the skin of the stealthed object. Reflecting and refracting radar and lidar in certain ways. Absorbing scanning energies. That sort of thing.
Hit it and damage the hull and you reduce the stealth capabilities of the hull.

3. That as a game mechanic combination with what I assume is ignoring stealth, it provides not only a weapon immune to stealth but an automatic and potentially multiple benefit to everything else. Yes the energy mine doesn't crit but it does ignore interceptors and dodge and has an area impact that balances those benefits/penalties.

I view the auto-antistealth/stealth breaker as extra and as a combination a little over the top (though auto-antistealth alone both makes sense and to me, isn't over the top). The only other method of automatically ignoring stealth and providing an SBB to the fleet is by fighter base contact, but that's balance by how close the fighter is to all the active weapon systems and AF. My $0.02 on it though it was ruled on.

I really can't argue the power of EMines. I agree with you there. Personally, I would restrict them all to DD or less and reduce the AD. And/or make ALL of the SL. Those Gaim EMines are just too much.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Right I haven't had a good rant in a while . . . . so this seems as good a point as any!

First off, the "upgraded" benefits of emines over 1st ED do in some instances make sense, and gives certain fleets a tactical edge in fights where they otherwise wouldn't have one.

My problem with the current emine rules are purely on their SB abilities. Now taking into context what everyone else has said so far, I have the following points to make, which in my opinion alude to why a stealth roll should be necessary for emines.

Emines automatically attack any target within 3", try and delude yourself that this isn't an attack as defined by the rules because you aren't rolling any DICE, but the rules say it is an automatic ATTACK. The rules for stealth state that after a ship has been declared as a target, but before rolling any ATTACK dice [theres that word again] make a stealth roll to beat the ships stealth. This ATTACK is no different other than the fact it is a large bomb exploding on a timed fuse so why shouldn't it roll a stealth roll first? You don't target a ship with an emine, you just target an area of space, I hear you say. Well, the stealth roll is [as I see it] a roll representative of your own ships sensor suites and targetting matrices, ATTEMPTING to gain a full lock on a vessel which you SUSPECT to be in an area of space. So you launch an emine where you SUSPECT a stealthed ship might be lurking, based on what? the failure of your own sensors to provide accurate data? so the emine explodes and nothing is there, do you keep on loading areas of space [OH MY GOODNESS HOW VAST IS SPACE?] until you happen to get lucky? To represent how random that process is in a wargame, would be insane, and would require an amount of resources that one ship alone wouldn't possess especially given on more than a few vessels its a one shot wonder.

My point is how can you fire at a ship that you don't know is there? Forget the fact you can see it on the table, we are supposed to be playing in the spirit of the game, and the setting on which it is based. I think emines need to loose their auto-SB abilities and instead allow an additional bonus to other attacks if the emine attack is successfull but the emine should still roll for stealth, after all, you ARE targetting that minbari sharlin even if you try and use the excuse that you are just targetting that atomic size particulate of spacial debris 200 metres of the sharlins bow. Get real please, if you don't know its there you can't shoot at it [SHOCK HERE] because you don't know its there. How do you know its there or not, use your sensor systems represented in your stealth roll, not succesfull? Then you don't know its there, try again, of course its entirely possible that where a ships sensor suite and several weapons targetting matrices might fail, that one weapons targetting suite might succeed.

Have I made my point? Likelihood of rules changing? Nil.

On the plus side, I'm not that bothered, I don't use minbari. And I've found that ships within emines tend only to get that one wonderful shot; before my centauri hunting packs on them and delivering some ion cannon goodness.

P.S - rant is not directed at anyone person; no offence is intended but I do have a supply of dummies ready in case your interested.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

My point is how can you fire at a ship that you don't know is there? Forget the fact you can see it on the table, we are supposed to be playing in the spirit of the game, and the setting on which it is based. I think emines need to loose their auto-SB abilities and instead allow an additional bonus to other attacks if the emine attack is successfull but the emine should still roll for stealth, after all, you ARE targetting that minbari sharlin even if you try and use the excuse that you are just targetting that atomic size particulate of spacial debris 200 metres of the sharlins bow. Get real please, if you don't know its there you can't shoot at it [SHOCK HERE] because you don't know its there. How do you know its there or not, use your sensor systems represented in your stealth roll, not succesfull?

Actually, it is clearly shown in the B5 series that you do know that a ship is there. You simply can't get a weapons lock on it.

Since space is so big, for shooting purposes this usually amounts to the same thing... But, apparently the designers felt that the explosion from an e-mine was big enough to fix this problem.

ShopKeepJon