Star trek Era and A call to Arms

[GalagaGalaxian]

Klingons

quick question about the game for play testers; if Romulans have access to all the Klingon ships, get cloaking, and all the same stats/traits as the Klingons for those ships at the same point cost, why wouldn't Klingon players just play as Romulans? Besides a personal preference for one empire over another? Is there something Klingons get that offset this?

Well, the Romulans use Klingon hulls, yes, however they have modified the ships rather significantly, ripping out the Klingon's Disruptor cannons and drone launches, possibly other equipment as well and installing their own Plasma Torpedoes as heavy weapons. That and they add the cloaking device, of course.

So while arguably the "same ship", a Klingon D6 and a Romulan KR play quite different


@ Jean: What ADB is and isn't allowed to do with their license is quite interesting. The DO NOTs seem quite unfortunate as the SFU has so much potential just from even my limited understanding of it. Still what DOs you have are quite impressive and very awesome, and I very much understand ADB being quite protective of holding on to those. And I can somewhat understand your potential frustration, I've already had to explain to some people I know online that the SFU is a very different beast from "Star Trek" and has been since 1980 or thereabouts. Anyways, I'll shut up before I risk going on a long ramble!

What race I'm most looking forward to are the Klingons and the Hydrans. Sadly the Hydrans aren't in the first book/waves of minis, but oh well, I shall live. The Klingons should be fun though. I'd actually almost prefer the Federation, but I have a feeling if I manage to get some friends into the game at least one of them will want to play the Feds themselves, so I'd rather encourage variety. Then again the Klingons are popular as well, so maybe Romulans... Honestly I don't mind which race I play as I can always just play them all. Though I might have to whip up some B5:ACTA style counters for that, my wallet cannot handle that much mini-buying power draw.

That said, I was quite excited when I heard CTA:SF announced. Finally a chance to revisit the SFU. I've fond but rather guilty memories of partially ruining my father's old SFB Captain's Edition and other materials as a 10 year old investigating this "neato star trek game". Nearly 20 years later I've maintained an interest in the game/universe (helped along by the two SFC games (SFC3? Wuzzat :wink: )), but never managed to A) Find the courage to deal with all those rules (I prefer rules light games/RPGs, just personal opinion, nothing wrong with the huge crunchy games, just not the horse for my course), B) Find other people interested in it in my area. However, some friends and I were big fans of B5:ACTA, so I'm hoping I can convince them to give CTA:SF a shot.

oops, rambled anyways.

 

[Jean]

GalagaGalaxian, I'm glad you rambled!

The "Do Nots" can be challenging, but there are ways to cope. We do produce fiction that supports our scenarios. With the RPG aspect, we will be able to stat out characters in stories and publish more stories that support that end of the business (this will come when I am able to move to Texas and do full-time editing and RPG-line management). It is all do-able with a positive attitude.

Jean

 

[Rick]

Rick - No you are wrong, the Kestrala are still Agile and still have the Foreward Shield rule.

Well that is interesting - brings it right back to the original question, then. If Romulans have access to Klingon ships and technology, what do the Klingons have that would 'set them apart' as a unique empire? Disruptors are not really enough to give a 'unique' feel to a fleet. I keep coming back to the comparisons with B5:ACTA where the differences in the fleets were quite pronounced and SF:ACTA where there just don't seem to be enough differences - they still feel a bit 'samey'.

 

[scoutdad]

Rick - No you are wrong, the Kestrala are still Agile and still have the Foreward Shield rule.

Well that is interesting - brings it right back to the original question, then. If Romulans have access to Klingon ships and technology, what do the Klingons have that would 'set them apart' as a unique empire? Disruptors are not really enough to give a 'unique' feel to a fleet. I keep coming back to the comparisons with B5:ACTA where the differences in the fleets were quite pronounced and SF:ACTA where there just don't seem to be enough differences - they still feel a bit 'samey'.

That's a rather difficult concept to translate into a game such as ACTA.
In the much more detailed Star Fleet Battles, there are numerous differences.
In SFB, the Klingons had these awesome phaser arcs.
Nearly every phaser would have had a 360 ddegree field of fire, except for protrusions on the ship which blocked same fire.
Every phaser would fire into the oblique (60 degrees offest from forward) arcs (the enlargedm bulbous forward hull prevented forward arc fire on many of them and the wings/nacelles slung under the rear hull blocked the rear oblique arcs. [Hard to translate this into a 90-degree fire-arc setting]
Many of the phasesr (including those on the underside of the bulbous forward hull could fire into the row of hexes directly behind the ship [Again, hard to transloate into a hex-less setting.]
The Klingon Disruptors can be fired every turn, whereas Romulan Plasma torpedoes have a three turn arming cycle. [For simplicities sake, this got nerfed into two turns in CTA]
SFB also brings into play the energy allocation system. Since Disruptors are relatively power efficent (2 points of power per turn to fire, out of the 42 points a D7 has...) and the Plasma torpedoes/cloaking devices are anything but energy efficent; the Klingons in SFB manuever like Ferraris while the typical Romulan Kestrals (while cloaked and reloading) move like Winnebagos.
the Klignon Disruptors also had the UIM [Ubitron Interface Module] which gave it greater accuracy at the outer ranges. This combined with the graet phaser arcs are what lead to the Klignon Sabre-Dance tactic. Of course, the UIM did not affect accuracy at shorter ranges, and there was a chance it could (and usually did) burn out when used too often. this brought a second "to hit" chart into play. [Again, in a much simplified game like CTA, this was left out]

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

Well, at least to start from what I understand the only two Klingon hulls the Romulans have access to are the outdated D6 Heavy Cruiser and the F5 Frigate, in CTA:SF anyways.

Meanwhile the Klingons have their full array of ships.

 

[billclo]

Rick - No you are wrong, the Kestrala are still Agile and still have the Foreward Shield rule.

Well that is interesting - brings it right back to the original question, then. If Romulans have access to Klingon ships and technology, what do the Klingons have that would 'set them apart' as a unique empire? Disruptors are not really enough to give a 'unique' feel to a fleet. I keep coming back to the comparisons with B5:ACTA where the differences in the fleets were quite pronounced and SF:ACTA where there just don't seem to be enough differences - they still feel a bit 'samey'.

Some things the Klingons have that the Roms don't may not show up at the ACTA level, but do at the SFB game level. Things such as drones, anti-drones, scatter-packs. Their ships tend to be cheaper due to the lack of a cloaking device surcharge, resulting in their fleets being larger for the same point cost. Some things like drones seem to be abstracted.

In SFB, drones take no energy to use and as such, certain ships like the D6D drone cruiser can be a terror able to move at very high speed, use scout channels, and still drop a bunch of drones onto it's target from long range. The plasma using races have a harder time with this due to the energy required to arm and hold their torpedoes, to say nothing of trying to use a cloak (very high energy cost in SFB typically).

If one were to be purely sticking to the intent of how Roms/Gorns are flown in SFB, they can only fire their plasma torps every third turn. BUT when they do, the combined plasma and phaser barrage is easily enough to destroy an equal sized ship in one blow. Whereas the disruptor races tend to have to dance around for several turns and weaken up your shields first before closing for the fatal blow.

I think the way they did ACTA:SF with the plasmas firing only every other turn is a good balance. Who wants to fly the Roms when they can only fire every third turn? They'd end up either cloaking and hiding until their torps are ready, or run away and take what damage they do until they are recharged.

You do have to play the Roms quite differently at the SFB level. I am not sure how it's going to work in ACTA:SF yet.

 

[GreyHart]

Could we turn this conversation back to a more positive note? Which of the traditional ST empires are you looking forward to flying the most?

Well I've pre-ordered the Fed Fleet, Klingon and Romulan Squadrons so I'm anxious to try out all of them as soon as they arrive.

I think other than the "Big Three" I'm most looking forward to trying the Kzinti, Lyrans and Tholians. The Kzin and Lyrans because I'm a cat lover. <shrugs> What can I say? <lol> The Tholians just because I think the webs are cool. Like bowties. 8)

I'll have to say that I'm really excited about this collabaration between Mongoose and ADB. I tried to play SFB many, many (too many) years ago but was just overwhelmed and daunted by the rules set. Nothing against it, I think it's a great game, just it was way too complicated and time consuming for me at the time. I've been wanting to see something along the lines of what you (Mongoose and ADB) have come up with in ACTA:SF for a while. I can't wait to get the book and miniatures - which look FANTASTIC by the way - and start playing.

 

[Rick]

Some very good points for me to mull over. One question more (but it's quite a biggie) - given that ADB want SF:ACTA to reflect the rules, flavour and setting of the SFU, how far away from the original ruleset can ACTA go (not talking about the licence - I'm very ok with the inbuilt restrictions of that - it's more about changing the game to make it different yet still an SFU game). For example - some of the races in B5:ACTA have unique special rules to reflect their fighting style or racial attributes - should SF:ACTA have special rules for Klingons (separate from the ship traits or attributes) which would be different from a special rule (or rules) for Romulans or Federation?

 

[billclo]

I did think of another difference between the Klingons and Roms, though I'm not sure if it will ever be useful in ACTA:SF. In the strategic level game Federation and Empire, there is a rule for Kestrels needing spare parts, and the Roms only start with so many turns worth (a turn is 6 months). They have to obtain more from the Klingons, which normally only requires a tug to make a round-trip to the Klingon homeworld and back each turn. If the Roms run out of spare parts, any Kestrels cost double the normal cost to repair and none can be modified into another ship type/variant. It only comes into effect occasionally, but can be an real problem in some games.

Another thing is that once the General War starts, the Klingons generally don't sell the Roms any more Kestrel hulls (they need them for themselves). So there will usually no replacements for Kestrels lost in combat, but the Roms can domestically build more Hawk-series ships.

There is a rule forcing an exchange of 3 Sparrowhawks for 3 D5, though. Which I personally don't like, but there it is.

All of these are mainly used in the strategic game, so unless ACTA has a campaign system they may never be an issue at all.

 

[Rick]

Well, I thought of a couple of possibles, but they might make the respective fleets a bit powerful:

Efficient Crew (Federation) - In turns where the Federation have the initiative, each ship may add +1 to a single crew quality check.

Enforced Discipline (Klingon) - Any Klingon ship may sacrifice a Crew point to re-roll a single dice. This may be done after a failed dice roll but before any other dice rolls are made.

Just for fun really.

 

[Da Boss]

Well, at least to start from what I understand the only two Klingon hulls the Romulans have access to are the outdated D6 Heavy Cruiser and the F5 Frigate, in CTA:SF anyways.

Meanwhile the Klingons have their full array of ships.

The Romulans also have the D7 Command version and a single C9(?) Dreadnought ...

 

[Rick]

Well, I thought of a couple of possibles, but they might make the respective fleets a bit powerful:

Efficient Crew (Federation) - In turns where the Federation have the initiative, each ship may add +1 to a single crew quality check.

Enforced Discipline (Klingon) - Any Klingon ship may sacrifice a Crew point to re-roll a single dice. This may be done after a failed dice roll but before any other dice rolls are made.

Just for fun really.

Scratch the Klingon one, forgot there's no crew score in ACTA:SF :?

Thought of one for the Romulans:

Strength and Honour (Romulan) - At the end of the movement phase, any Romulan ship that is reduced to crippled status but has at least 1 Damage point remaining may self-destruct. This causes no damage to any other ships around it but the opposing player will only get half the number of points for it's destruction.

:lol:

 

[Nerroth]

If we ever get more specific traits for the "TV empires" in the game, I would sooner prefer it be on a more class-by-class basis.

For example, the Federation have a hospital ship (based on the old CL) that could one day be brought over; a rule giving it a bonus when performing relief operations would be more appropriate.

Similarly, the Klingons in SFB have a handful of diplomatic cruisers; which prerepsent their sharing of the old Terran belief that diplomacy flows through the mouth of a cannon. In scenarios which have a political/diplomatic element (say, where you try to negoatiate with a non-aligned planet in the Neutral Zone), some sort of bonus for such a ship might make things interesting.

Plus, if we ever get to the stage of seeing rules for special sensors worked up, there could one day be scope for making survey ships that bit more distinct from fleet scouts; perhaps by making the former better at dealing with "first contact" scenarios or "into the unknown" events, while leaving the latter to serve as fleet support units.



Although, once things start to move further away from the "TV empires" and out into the broader array of SFU-native powers, I could imagine a few more empire-specific special traits making their way into the game in order to accommodate some of the more... interesting way things get done out in the great beyond.

 

[Da Boss]

For example, the Federation have a hospital ship (based on the old CL) that could one day be brought over; a rule giving it a bonus when performing relief operations would be more appropriate.

Dead easy to do - especailly if you tie it into campaign rules - I did it for hospital ships and also fleet auxilaries for most races.

 

[billclo]

Well, at least to start from what I understand the only two Klingon hulls the Romulans have access to are the outdated D6 Heavy Cruiser and the F5 Frigate, in CTA:SF anyways.

Meanwhile the Klingons have their full array of ships.

The Romulans also have the D7 Command version and a single C9(?) Dreadnought ...

The Roms have a few D7 hulls, and I think 1 D7C, plus a C8/9 Dreadnaught, plus the usual D6, F5, and E4 hulls that were transferred to them. Plus a Tug.

If anyone is interested, I can post how many of each the Roms had from the F&E order of battle.

 

[Nerroth]

In a recent Captain's Log, they also note that a number of later Klingon hulls (such as F5Ws) are shipped to the Romulans in the Y190s, as part of a joint Fed-Klingon effort to try and keep the Empire in the fight against the Andromedans.

 

[Rick]

If we ever get more specific traits for the "TV empires" in the game, I would sooner prefer it be on a more class-by-class basis.

For example, the Federation have a hospital ship (based on the old CL) that could one day be brought over; a rule giving it a bonus when performing relief operations would be more appropriate.

Similarly, the Klingons in SFB have a handful of diplomatic cruisers; which prerepsent their sharing of the old Terran belief that diplomacy flows through the mouth of a cannon. In scenarios which have a political/diplomatic element (say, where you try to negoatiate with a non-aligned planet in the Neutral Zone), some sort of bonus for such a ship might make things interesting.

Plus, if we ever get to the stage of seeing rules for special sensors worked up, there could one day be scope for making survey ships that bit more distinct from fleet scouts; perhaps by making the former better at dealing with "first contact" scenarios or "into the unknown" events, while leaving the latter to serve as fleet support units.

All of that could be accomplished with a new trait for that class of ship - something appropriate for its purpose. What I was looking for was a general attribute for the specific race that gave it something unique and distinctive.

 

[Nerroth]

As I was trying to refer to, that sort of thing is probably more likely to happen once some of the more distinct SFU-native empires show up.

(Think of how the five House fleets in ACtA:NA were first introduced, but only with FotFS will we see the likes of the Vau take things in more exotic directions.)

 

[Totenkopf]

so far from what Mongoose has released, I see 3 Klingon hulls in the Romulan fleet
1. Kestral KR (This is the same model as the Klingon D6 Heavy Cruiser)
2. KF5R (This is the same model as the Klingon F5 Frigate)
3. KC9R (This is the same model as the Klingon C8 Dreadnought)

So from what I've seen on Planet Mongoose and the responses on this thread, what differentiates the Klingons and the "Romulanized" Klingon ships are the following:
1. Increased point cost for the addition of a cloaking device, a Klingon D6 is 150 pts, while the KR Heavy Cruiser is 165 pts.
2. Replacement of Disruptors with Plasma Torpedoes on the KRs
3. KR ships will not benefit from the universal improved initiative that Klingons receive (source "There’s Klingons on the Starboard Bow…" PM blog dated 9, Nov. 2011, which states Klingons have a higher initiative score than the Federation. The assumption here is that when the Romulans were previewed they were not stated as having a higher initiative score than anyone else, hence Klingons will have higher initiative scores than Feds & Roms).
4. *some other minor alterations such as the removal of anti-drone racks (nothing on Planet Mongoose to confirm or deny this, so this is just supposition)
5. And just for laughs, Klingons will be different than Romulans because you won't have to be the blue ale sipping elves in space.

As for any talk of a campaign system, I believe Matthew Sprange stated that there is a campaign system in place or one is being worked on for ACTA:SF, which I'll be very excited to participated in...if I can find or coerce players for it.

 

[Rambler]

There is a 4th Kestral in the mix as well, the KRC. The KRC is a Romulanized D7C. Yes all Kestrals lose their Anti-drones. The +1 initiative is a Klingon Racial trait so you are just going to have to wait and see if the highly aggressive Romulans get a similar trait.