star ship pricing

[BP]

This was always a bit vague. For me - a Close Structure was anything that didn't match the other definitions... i.e. such as a Cube, or Star Trek's Enterprise.

Since CT days, I took 'Close' to literally mean that no internal 'air' pockets or unbalanced topology would exist such that air would be diverted in such a way as to provide increased resistance or directional change due to the configuration of the structure. Seeing Disperse being just a more exaggerated version of a Close Structure (typically asymetrical - such as a 'random' looking collection of boxes) that would not be streamlined - circular definition to be sure, as the structure defines how streamlined a hull is.

A Close Structure, therefore, could not be fully streamlined - my definition being that it literally translates to partial and not a simple geometric base shape. This seems to be the intent and there is no other configuration that meets this requirement.

 

[DFW]

Both the Fire, Fusion & Steel supplement for Traveller New Era and the
Vehicle Design System in the Central Supply Catalog of T4 have the
Close Structure configuration.

But, no description of what it is...

 

[BP]

Blending of rules can get you into trouble... :?

For actual gaming purposes - it actually can be a boon... and if it makes sense to you and your players (or just you if you are the Ref!) all's good!

 

[DFW]

Out of T20 word for word...

...A close structure is only partially streamlined. The term is used for vessels that consist of a number of similarly or differently-shaped structures joined without significant projections.

FTW

 

[rust]

But, no description of what it is...

Well, in T4 a Sphere has a length factor, width factor and height factor of
1.0 each, while a Close Structure has a length factor of 1.75, a width fac-
tor of 1.3 and a height factor of 0.3, and its total surface area has a fac-
tor of 1.4 compared to the 1.0 of a Sphere. I think this gives an impres-
sion of what the author was thinking of, especially when compared with
the relevant data of all the other configurations (= Open Frame, Needle,
Wedge, Cylinder, Box, Disk and Slab). That the Open Frame and the Clo-
se Structure are the only ones which cannot be Streamlined or Airframe
also helps to imagine what he was writing about, I think.

 

[BP]

Yeah, authors sometimes depend on process of elimination for rules... which doesn't work well given language ambiguities. Proofing by otherwise uninvolved parties would help identify these problems and result in more explicit definitions (good professionals typically being too expensive).

 

[DFW]

That the Open Frame and the Clo-
se Structure are the only ones which cannot be Streamlined or Airframe
also helps to imagine what he was writing about, I think.

Not really as those parameters for the close structure in no way indicates a shape that can't be streamlined. So, that designation doesn't help much.

 

[rust]

Not really as those parameters for the close structure in no way indicates a shape that can't be streamlined. So, that designation doesn't help much.

I think since the basic form itself could be streamlined, the fact that a Clo-
se Structure cannot be streamlined means that is has protrusions and in-
dentations which would place it about halfway between an Open Frame
and a streamlined configuration.

 

[DFW]

Not really as those parameters for the close structure in no way indicates a shape that can't be streamlined. So, that designation doesn't help much.

I think since the basic form itself could be streamlined, the fact that a Clo-
se Structure cannot be streamlined means that is has protrusions and in-
dentations which would place it about halfway between an Open Frame
and a streamlined configuration.

Yes, it would to be something along those lines.

But, since a ship can land on an airless world, the descent has to be controllable down to a zero velocity and thus, any shape that can support its own weight could land on a planet with atmosphere.

 

[rust]

But, since a ship can land on an airless world, the descent has to be controllable down to a zero velocity and thus, any shape that can support its own weight could land on a planet with atmosphere.

Of course, but this is Traveller. :wink:

 

[DFW]

But, since a ship can land on an airless world, the descent has to be controllable down to a zero velocity and thus, any shape that can support its own weight could land on a planet with atmosphere.

Of course, but this is Traveller. :wink:

Right. That's how Trav handles landing on an airless world...

But, I know what you mean. :lol:

 

[Treebore]

Have you guys ever calculated a 36,000,000 loan? 480 months at 7% would be over 512 million in interest alone. You will have paid over 584 million by your final payment.

3% would cut that to about 84 million.

 

[rust]

Have you guys ever calculated a 36,000,000 loan?

My computer does that for me:
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mortgages/loan-calculator.aspx

 

[BP]

Buying a new house Treebore? Double up you initial payments applying them to the principle - you'll cut that down a lot!

(rust - will your online calculator support 36,000,000?!)

 

[rust]

(rust - will your online calculator support 36,000,000?!)

Not the one I linked, but I did not want to link one in German language ...

 

[Treebore]

The one I used supported 36,000,000:

http://www.mortgage-calc.com/cgi-bin/genloan.cgi

 

[CosmicGamer]

For calculating monthly payments for 40 years, the rules say(p 138 core book) to divide by final price 240. But there are 480 months in 40 years. Is this a typo?

Dividing by 240 is a simple way to calculate the loan payment without having to do interest calculations.

I checked home loans and the actual amount paid on home loans over 30 years it is about double the amount financed for a 5.25% loan.

The cheapest ship (free trader) costs 36.567 MCr stock. That's a monthly payment of 152+ thousand credits per month.

Characters often decide to take older ships instead of brand new ships so that the cost and monthly payment are lower. Sometimes characters have ship shares to reduce the cost.

Add crew salaries 15 - 20 thousand a month.

Ship owner crew often don't take a salary. They take a percentage of profits.

Total cost per month = around 190 thousand credits per month.

For my calculation below, lets say 2 ship shares and a 10 year old ship for an additional 3% discount (varies based on dice roll) for a 5% discount and a ship that costs a little over 34.7MCr instead of 36.567 MCr.
One possibility:
Mortgage 145 thousand a month (instead of 152)
Maintenance and life support 25/month (same)
Paid crew 15/month
Fuel @ jump 1 refined 11 (left out)
Total Expense 196 (similar to OP)

88 tons of cargo yields a max of 88 thousand credits per jump 1.

This assumes no mail which is 25kCr for 5 tons. The odds of getting mail are not the greatest though. This also assumes no spec trade.

You would need to max out every single time, every 2 weeks on the dot to make payments and profits.
Am I making a mistake somewhere?

I believe disregarding speculative trade on a trade ship is wrong.

Rolling on the trade speculation can get you more money per ton, but the randomness of dice can also loose you the same amount so in the long run it's close to a wash.

Its hard to predict the profits from speculative trade but to discount it is not fair.
1) This assumes there is no DM on Int, Soc, and Broker skill. If you buy a trade ship with no trade ability you should count yourself lucky if you can still break even.
2) This assumes there is no DM on goods.
- All of the common trade goods are available however they are some of the lowest Cr/ton and hence lowest profit goods.
- All the trade goods that match the worlds trade code(s) are available and will never have a negative DM to buy. There are 1d6 random goods available. This gives many goods to pick through. I have no idea how to determine what an approximate DM might be without knowing the systems. I would think Traders would tend to travel on a favorable trade route that gives good DMs.
- the base Cr/ton is important but it's hard to figure out with random goods and unknown world codes. Interestingly, a 50,000Cr/ton cargo with a mere +1DM total for broker skill, characteristics, and favorable trade codes would generate 2.5kCr/ton.
- the quantity of speculative cargo is hard to determine
So some of this is just numbers thrown together but I think it is a conservative estimate.

high passengers = 12 thousand (more likely than 36)
mid passage = 9 thousand (previously left out)
low passage = 10 thousand (instead of 20)
Speculative cargo with an average roll of 10 on 3d6
+2 DM for broker skill and characteristics on purchase
+2 DM for broker skill and characteristics on sale
a mere +1 DM combined between buying and selling world trade codes
10 tons of common goods at base 6kCr/ton = 15kCr
20 tons of speculative goods at base 25kCr/ton = 125kCr
45 tons of freight = 45kCr
13 tons of empty cargo
Total Income = 216
Total Expense = 196
Total profit = 20kCr with just one J1 per month

Someone better check this, It's late and I'm tired.

 

[BP]

Playing Traveller with Players without a starship never appealed to me. Likewise, playing Accountants in Space...

There's always a lot of posts about how the Trade rules don't make sense - one can't meet payments - and therefore Trade in the 3I (or whatever setting) can't work...

To me, the Trade rules are there to make financing a ship require alternate means - i.e. Patrons and Adventure! (Speculative trade at the least...)

As to the larger setting issues - most trade would be with megacorps and other large trade lines that, just like in the RW, are able to profit because of the scale and scope of their business. After-all, most small businesses (at least in the U.S.) fail in relative short time spans.

That might beggar the question - how did the big guys succeed long enough to be able to make a profit? Simple - just like in the RW - they inherited money, stole it, stole something else, screwed over competitors and creditors, got lucky, worked 24x7, etc.

CT chargen had several means for characters to simply roll for a ship - and I recall only once requiring PCs to actually buy a ship... but then credits aren't a motivating factor in my games.

 

[rust]

As to the larger setting issues - most trade would be with megacorps and other large trade lines that, just like in the RW, are able to profit because of the scale and scope of their business.

True, but this is obviously not the assumption behind the Traveller system,
where both lots of very expensive starships designed for the small trader
and trade rules with passenger, freight and cargo quantities suitable only
for the small trader are the focus of the economic side of the game.

Of course, one can always ignore that part of the system if one prefers a
setting without "mercantyle entanglements", and this may well be the best
approach. However, this does not change the fact that this part of the sys-
tem, in fact its entire economy, seems designed with the idea to raise the
consumption of headache medications.

For my settings I can do almost without starships, or at least keep the few
starships the setting requires in the background, but I find it impossible to
ignore the entire economy of the setting - even if I would decide and try
to do it, the players would force me to come up with a plausible economy
for the activities of their characters. The Traveller system certainly is no
help for doing this.

 

[DFW]

IRL, not so long ago (late sail, early steam) large lines plied long routes. Tramps connected the shorter and also smaller ports. Most were PURE freighters, not spec. In Trav, mega lines aren't going to be out on the fringe making short runs between low pop planets.