SST EVO

[Justicar]

I'm in the pre-paint camp. I can paint alright, I just don't really want to, even if I do have the time. I'll take the pre-paints and touch them up and individualize them a touch if I need to.

What really got me wanting pre-paints is that I bought a box of both Cougars and Grizzlies, and the quality is utter garbage. I don't know what's wrong with the molds, but there's a ton of flash, the parts are off-center and nothing fits together. It was the first time I ever bought a Mongoose product and pretty much guaranteed it to be the last, unless the pre-paints are good enough for table-top quality.

I'll ask here because this thread is much shorter than the 50-page SST:Evo behemoth. Have there been changes announced to pricing and content? The last I heard (and this was several months ago), a box of pre-paint Exosuits was going to cost the same as the metal, but would include one additional figure. And now posts in this thread lead me to believe that's not the case.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Why would it be sad for the metal minis to disappear? Do you not have enough of the metal minis you want by now? They have been out for quite some time.

Because when something good passes by, and is no longer available its sad. Although I look forward to new things (such as anything new for SST), its a shame that other people will lose out on whats gone before.

Pre-painted is becoming more and more popular with manufacturers. In a way its a shame that they are, as painting and modelling is a big part of the hobby, is losing even just a little bit of that (as not everybody will go pre-painted) a good thing?

Buying your miniatures painted makes Wargaming more accessable to the general public but doesn't it 'kill' part of the fun of Wargaming it a little too.

Things easily gotten are never as precious or worthwhile in the long run.

There is all kinds of discounted box sets all over the net. So go get them before they are no longer available.

There are plenty of discounted pre-painted miniatures too. Some stores simply cannot get rid of the first Battlefield Evolution miniatures, offering them with as much as a 60% discount!

Plastic minis is the way of the future. The price on metals is skyrocketing. Shoot even Rackham's confrontation and Reaper's new line are plastic.

Unfortunately, the way the world is going the Oil reserves are going to run out quickly (and possibly before the metal reserves) and a lot of plastics are non-recyclable (whereas tin and lead are recyclable) - so no more plastic miniatures in the long run either. The prices of metal miniatures may keep rising, they will be around for a very long time. The molds are cheaper to produce, (and with the newer synthetic molds they rarely wear out) and they are just simpler to produce. You will find more companies going under as the result of producing pre-painted as they setup cost is WAY higher than with metal miniatures.

But if for some reason you can't get all you want by the time the plastic ones come out I'm pretty sure you can play with a metal/plastic mixed force.

Matt did state that the original SST range will be available for some time after the release of SST Evo, so its not a problem really.

 

[katadder]

prepaints will be nice and i was considering buying into SSTevo because of these. however having played the BFevo rules at mongoose open day and knowing SSTevo is based off this i think I may ave to give it a miss as the rules system is pretty poor to say the least. (things like elite fedaykin sitting next to a tank, lose their leader so cannot do anything. or the fact a trooper from the SAS needs the same to kill an infantry man as an untrained militiaman from the MEA).

 

[Iain McGhee]

I'm not entirely convinced with the SST:EVO rules so far either, although admittedly I've only tried out the basic rules and the WIP unit cards (not that there's anything else unless you're a playtester). The original SST rules were more to my taste and I still play it regularly. I haven't tried BF:EVO with the full rules so I can't really give an opinion on it.

 

[Hiromoon]

You've pretty much got what we've got, Iain... well, we also have the advanced rules and other stuff (and I've been ever so lax in getting those cards generated too, haven't I?)

 

[Xorrandor]

Buying your miniatures painted makes Wargaming more accessable to the general public but doesn't it 'kill' part of the fun of Wargaming it a little too.

Um, no. If you've got multiple tables of terrain, with every inch painted and sculpted, then you can whine about how modeling is gone from the game for you. Model railroaders never build their own train cars any more, but that doesn't mean they don't spend most of their time modeling; they just spend all their time making detailed terrain for those pre-painted trains to move through. We can do the same, if we want. Build actual scale trees, actual rolling hills, buildings with various levels of damage you can swap in as they take fire. Hills with ferromagnetic foil underneath so the light pre-painted infantry can actually stand on the slope (after you afix magnets to the bottoms).

The modeling is only gone if you want it gone.

Things easily gotten are never as precious or worthwhile in the long run.

Yeah, yeah. I notice how reticent you are to correspond with us all on these new-fangled computers, instead of using the more labor-intensive postal system. I bet you even buy your food at the market most days, instead of growing it yourself. Slacker... :roll:

I mean, I get that people mourn the loss of hand-written correspondence, and fresh-grown fruit, and any of a million other things. But it's amazing how few mourn them enough to try to revive them, in the end.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Um, no. If you've got multiple tables of terrain, with every inch painted and sculpted, then you can whine about how modeling is gone from the game for you. Model railroaders never build their own train cars any more, but that doesn't mean they don't spend most of their time modeling; they just spend all their time making detailed terrain for those pre-painted trains to move through. We can do the same, if we want. Build actual scale trees, actual rolling hills, buildings with various levels of damage you can swap in as they take fire. Hills with ferromagnetic foil underneath so the light pre-painted infantry can actually stand on the slope (after you afix magnets to the bottoms).

The modeling is only gone if you want it gone.

Most people don't have the room for one table of terrain, let alone multiple tables! (not everyone is as insane over the hobby as a lot of people on here) people (as a generalization) are lazy these days, and want everything now - with little or no effort! How long before terrain building goes too, GW have already started the path to idiot proof terrain with their plastic kits. GF9 produce pre-painted terrain. Its on the cards tbh.

Yeah, yeah. I notice how reticent you are to correspond with us all on these new-fangled computers, instead of using the more labor-intensive postal system. I bet you even buy your food at the market most days, instead of growing it yourself. Slacker... :roll:

I mean, I get that people mourn the loss of hand-written correspondence, and fresh-grown fruit, and any of a million other things. But it's amazing how few mourn them enough to try to revive them, in the end.

Computers are hardly 'new fangled' mate, unless they are for you - because you have been sealed in a cryogenic environment and missed the last 26 years.

Such an observation may still be true for other people, but not for me personally. I still write letters by hand and post them (I have a lot of aging relatives who wouldn't even know how to turn a PC on, let alone send an Email Lol). I also help my Father on his allotment growing fruit and veg, and rescue my many Cats - a task totally alien to a 'hi-tech' environment. Computers are a tool, just like so many other 'mod cons' and (as far as I am concerned) get treated as such.

Your argument here is spurious at best, imagine running a forum by snail mail LMAO!

There are more people who prefer to paint and model, than seem to like pre-painted (which might be a contributary fact as to Rackhams predicament). I don't think you can even blame a fear of what is new, its a simple fact that the quality isn't going to be there (take a look at the googly eyes and bent weapons on BF Evo to see where I am coming from) I LOVE SST, but I can see this as being a bit of a death knell for SST in the long run; rather than a saving grace for its future.

 

[shotgun-toting chipmunk]

I don't see it that way. Possibly because of my situation. I loved SST when it came out, and even enjoyed the skinnies a bit. However, the frequency I spent in all aspects of the game waned because a) I got tired of games bogging down because I had to check three different books whenever a rules question came up and b) I got tired of playing with unpainted models, but I couldn't find the time & motivation to paint everything up. Evo addresses both of those issues. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a game of SST every once in a while, but games like BF:Evo takes up the majority of my gaming time now.

 

[Galatea]

SST Rules aren't that complicated that you would need to check the books that often.
Most time you will only need one specific book (the Main Rulebook or the appropriate Army Book), in the worst case you will need two (Main and Army).

In Evo you need to check those fizzy unit cards what isn't any better (better buy a magnifying glass before you start playing).
And you need to read all that microscopic text just to find out weather a weapon now has piercing/2 or just piercing/1.

Also in many aspects the Evo Rules are just silly. A Tank(er) that can't charge through a soldier squad is ridiculous.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I don't see it that way. Possibly because of my situation. I loved SST when it came out, and even enjoyed the skinnies a bit.

Situation?

However, the frequency I spent in all aspects of the game waned because a) I got tired of games bogging down because I had to check three different books whenever a rules question came up

Without wanting to seem rude, you and your gaming buddies must have the worst memories ever Lol! I've NEVER found a situation where you needed to check multiple books with SST. Each player (ideally) should know the rules for his own Army, thus elimination a lot of cross referencing.

and b) I got tired of playing with unpainted models, but I couldn't find the time & motivation to paint everything up.

Moaning about playing with unpainted models and admitting that you couldn't find the time & motivation to paint in the same sentence is silly! Being a parent of two Kids, Self Employed, having infirm parents to help look after, looking after a LOT of Cats - I can assure you I MAKE time to paint and play - I NEED IT!

My point is if you want to do something, you will find the time. My weeks are always mad, but somehow I manage it!

Evo addresses both of those issues. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a game of SST every once in a while, but games like BF:Evo takes up the majority of my gaming time now.

Only up to a point, the Evo rules are pretty weak at best. The miniatures are amongst the worst pre-painted on the market - most retailers can't shift em, or simply won't stock them.

I'm glad you enjoy BF Evo so much, but (unfortunately) you really are in the minority!

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

SST Rules aren't that complicated that you would need to check the books that often.
Most time you will only need one specific book (the Main Rulebook or the appropriate Army Book), in the worst case you will need two (Main and Army).

ABSOLUTELY!

In Evo you need to check those fizzy unit cards what isn't any better (better buy a magnifying glass before you start playing).
And you need to read all that microscopic text just to find out weather a weapon now has piercing/2 or just piercing/1.

I find them bland, and ugly at the same time!

Also in many aspects the Evo Rules are just silly. A Tank(er) that can't charge through a soldier squad is ridiculous.

Totally Spot On!

 

[Xorrandor]

and b) I got tired of playing with unpainted models, but I couldn't find the time & motivation to paint everything up.

Moaning about playing with unpainted models and admitting that you couldn't find the time & motivation to paint in the same sentence is silly! Being a parent of two Kids, Self Employed, having infirm parents to help look after, looking after a LOT of Cats - I can assure you I MAKE time to paint and play - I NEED IT!

My point is if you want to do something, you will find the time. My weeks are always mad, but somehow I manage it!

And I MAKE time to play, because I need it. I don't need to waste time painting yet another unit of Soldiers. (Or for that matter, a first unit of Soldiers. )

There are more people who prefer to paint and model, than seem to like pre-painted.

There are more people here who prefer to paint and model, true. That's because the only way to get SST games in, at the moment, is to paint and model. I bet there are lots of people who like making sweaters on knitting forums too. Doesn't mean the people who like prepaints aren't out there. I'll agree that better quality would help, though...

Computers are hardly 'new fangled' mate, unless they are for you - because you have been sealed in a cryogenic environment and missed the last 26 years.

28, at least. That's when we got our Apple II, and I know it was possible to get computers before that. I was only 7, though, so I didn't have much input on purchasing decisions.

But that's not the point. My point is that people have always been "lazy", wanting better products for free. There's no "these days" about it. And if you're too lazy to set up a snail mail forum, well, then I suggest you know why people are lazy. It's all about priorities. My priority is playing games. If yours is painting, fine, I've mentioned terrain as a possibility. Apparently you are worried that they will stop selling styrofoam, wood and paint when pre-made terrain eventually comes out. OK, I get it. Sorta. :roll:

 

[Galatea]

My point is that people have always been "lazy", wanting better products for free. There's no "these days" about it.

That's right to a certain point.
Though 'being lazy in general' is some kind of US-American phenomena.
Europeans tend to be much more active and do not have this 'I just want to consume' mentality.
We demand quality - and we are really willing to do something on our own.
And if the quality is right we have no problem paying a higher price.

And that's probably the reason why never any prepainted game established in Europe (even MWDA is more in a state of stable rim existence, and that's the most successful PPP system after all).

 

[katadder]

isnt AT-47 by a european games company? thats pre-painted.
as for MWA dont even talk about that rubbish, has to be the worst game i have seen, aimed at kids really. if you want mechs play classic battletech

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

28, at least. That's when we got our Apple II, and I know it was possible to get computers before that.

The IBM PC was introduced in 1981, and was the first Computer to bear the 'PC' label = 26 years.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

TBH, after looking at AT-43 and BF Evo - I am NOT looking forward to SST Evo Miniatures.

My plan is now to pretty much only buy what I don't have, and most likely re-paint them (I am the sort of Guy who re-paints his Star Wars miniatures).

I you want to Wargame, in a serious manner. Assembling and painting is an IMPORTANT part of the experience. If you don't enjoy painting and modelling, then fair enough. If you don't have the time to paint and model, also fair enough.

But don't (and this is going to p**s a lot of people off, but its my thought on the matter so I am expressing it) kid yourself you are playing anything but a 'Toy' wargame, and thats all (not that there's anything wrong with that tbh, Toy Wargaming is very popular).

A lot of people are going to call me a snob, (rather a snob than not be 'ar**d') but I love the WHOLE hobby (BTW, quick question - can you call JUST playing a Wargame a hobby, or is it a passtime like playing Board Games). There have been lots of discussion about 'making SST more accessable' and such, and initially I was really behind that. But the more and more I think about it, the worse an Idea it seems.

SST Evo has had constant problems as far as its release goes, they have even started releasing metal models to 'fill the (increasing) gap'. All that projects to me is that its going horribly wrong.

The initial releases of AT-43 were 'ok', but the quality and style of the pre-paints changed with subsequent releases (much to the dismay and irritation of its fans) and production problems and poor sales in some parts of the world have left Rackham at deaths door, and that worries me for Mongoose.

YES pre-paints make things easier and faster, and yes it makes the whole thing more accessable (however, Wargaming of any sort is NEVER going to be HUGE - it generally appeals to a certain mindset) and as most consumers don't give a hoot - that presents the problem. A company spends A LOT of money on the release of a pre-painted game, and simply can't sell or produce them fast enough to warrent the expediture or risk and thats damaging no matter WHO runs the company.

Is pre-painted the future, I don't think so. Battlefront games are doing great with Flames of War - and not a pre-painted Tank in sight . . . . . .

 

[Soulmage]

But don't (and this is going to p**s a lot of people off, but its my thought on the matter so I am expressing it) kid yourself you are playing anything but a 'Toy' wargame, and thats all (not that there's anything wrong with that tbh, Toy Wargaming is very popular).
[/color]

Doesn't piss me off at all. All you're doing is splitting hairs and creating labels so that you can feel superior to others. Meh. . . whatever.

Personally, I already have lots of absolutely gorgeously painted miniatures for a variety of wargames and roleplaying games.

All of them are courtesy of my wife, she's an amazing painter - generally wins best painted at every tournament we go to. . . we're running out of room from plaques and trophies! LOL!!

Out of curiosity. . . since my wife does all the painting and assembling, and I'm just using "ready to go" models thanks to her. . . does that mean she's playing a wargame and I'm playing a toy wargame - even though we are both playing the same game?

But getting back on topic. . . .

The reason I'm interested in SST:Evo is because I don't want to add MORE to her plate than she's already got! Pre-painted miniatures, provided they look halfway decent are fine. For us the limiting factor is my wife's time. . . not money.

Add to that the fact that when I play wargames I like to play across from somebody who has a decently painted army. Unfortunately, the majority of painters don't really rise to that standard. Sure, every once in a while I will play somebody who's painting is on-par w/ my wife's. . . but most of the time its extremely basic. . . sometimes stuff isn't painted at all.

If Mongoose can make good on half-way decent pre-paints, I will always play against at least that standard. The people who don't have lots of other wargames they are involved in can repaint, convert, etc to their heart's content.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Yes Soulmage, but YOU are in a VERY small minority - I'll bet there aren't that many gamers who have such an advantage.

I did not intend to act 'superior' (in fact by you putting that label upon what I wrote gives you the air of attempting to appear superior yourself), and as for 'splitting hairs', thats pretty much exactly what you are doing throughout your last post.

Out of curiosity. . . since my wife does all the painting and assembling, and I'm just using "ready to go" models thanks to her. . . does that mean she's playing a wargame and I'm playing a toy wargame - even though we are both playing the same game?

No really, as they weren't produced in a toy style production line - again, rather supercilious of you.

Money may not be an issue (arrogance again) but that ISN'T the point, nor is your Wife doing all the work for you.

The point is pre-paints can damage companies finacially, the only pre-painted miniature games that do well are the collectable kind. Such marketing plays on the greed of the consumer (the "I want more rares than you" syndrome) something that a pre-painted non collectable game can never do.

 

[lastbesthope]

I you want to Wargame, in a serious manner. Assembling and painting is an IMPORTANT part of the experience. If you don't enjoy painting and modelling, then fair enough. If you don't have the time to paint and model, also fair enough.

But don't (and this is going to p**s a lot of people off, but its my thought on the matter so I am expressing it) kid yourself you are playing anything but a 'Toy' wargame, and thats all (not that there's anything wrong with that tbh, Toy Wargaming is very popular).

No I think that the point is that YOU think that wargaming should include painting and modelling/assembly. I mean it's not called warpaintingmodellingassemblinggaming is it?

If it's an important part of your 'wargaming' experience to assemble and paint your models fine, but there is no need to denegrate those that choose (either on their own or indirectly through the circumstances they find themselves in) to play with prepaints.

Me, I focus more on the gaming part of 'wargaming' I mean it does constitute 2/3 of the descriptor, and more than 2/3 of the reason I play.

LBH

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

No I think that the point is that YOU think that wargaming should include painting and modelling/assembly. I mean it's not called warpaintingmodellingassemblinggaming is it?

If it's an important part of your 'wargaming' experience to assemble and paint your models fine, but there is no need to denegrate those that choose (either on their own or indirectly through the circumstances they find themselves in) to play with prepaints.

Me, I focus more on the gaming part of 'wargaming' I mean it does constitute 2/3 of the descriptor, and more than 2/3 of the reason I play.

LBH

Ahem, its NOT my generalization - check out TMP and a LOT of other wargaming forums (I can't comment on all of the other Forums as I don't visit all of them).