Spotting targets

[hithero]

After several games we found that some sort of spotting roll was desperately needed as it is impossible to hide a unit in cover and was essential in our attacker V defender (with oncomming reserves) for the defenders would be shot away by superior firepower. After a brief discussion we decided to keep it extremely simple.

If a 'hidden' unit does not move or shoot during during its turn a unit/model needs to aquire the target, this is done by simply rolling a 4+ and is done during the shoot action. This means that tanks moving quickly using 'tracks' cannot locate as its not a shoot action and gives a use for normal move (see other thread). If the unit fails to spot the target, it cannot the decide to spot or shoot something else.

This also means that the paratrooper defenders were not all wiped out by tank guns straight away and the German forces crept foward with combined arms, as it should be, with tanks and infantry supporting each other.

We did think about making up a chart with different chances of success depending on actions etc but felt it was really an uneccessary complication

 

[Bede]

Are you talking about for artillery fire or for any shooting?

Can yo uexplain further why you find it necessary?

 

[hithero]

Normal shooting. In an attacker defender situations, the defenders can be picked on piecemeal and the attackers know exactly where the enemy is which is not very realistic.
In our game the Germans had to get to the bridge and blow it before the British tanks arrived. Because the defending British wanted to hold their fire to take down the infantry, they could until spotted. If they could hide 'in position' they would have just been blown away by tank guns while out of range themselves, systematically being destroyed as the Germans advanced.
Being hidden slowed the German advance and allowed them to use combined tank and infantry tactics to root out defending occupants as they advanced.
The game went perfectly and great fun to.

 

[Snicky]

It sounds a little like the Ambush trait. I like how it worked out for you, I may have to incorporate something like that into my games too, at least for some games.

-snick

 

[127th Angry Angels]

I like this idea, it has a good feel to it. Could make a good advanced rule.

Anything that contributes to fog of war without being OTT is good IMO.

 

[Bede]

Normal shooting. In an attacker defender situations, the defenders can be picked on piecemeal and the attackers know exactly where the enemy is which is not very realistic.
In our game the Germans had to get to the bridge and blow it before the British tanks arrived. Because the defending British wanted to hold their fire to take down the infantry, they could until spotted. If they could hide 'in position' they would have just been blown away by tank guns while out of range themselves, systematically being destroyed as the Germans advanced.
Being hidden slowed the German advance and allowed them to use combined tank and infantry tactics to root out defending occupants as they advanced.
The game went perfectly and great fun to.

I see.

One thing to consider is that if units are in buildings they can't be targeted unless they are using windows/doors to fire out of. This sort of produces the same effect. Of course it doesn't allow units to be "hidden" in woods or foxholes, etc.

 

[hithero]

The problem with using current rules is that a unit would have to make an action to take up firing positions, possibly allowing reaction fire first and MG's can't be set up to prone. Allowing them a possibility of being hidden does help immensly.

 

[Bede]

The problem with using current rules is that a unit would have to make an action to take up firing positions, possibly allowing reaction fire first and MG's can't be set up to prone. Allowing them a possibility of being hidden does help immensly.

I guess I don't read the rules that way. Does it say that you have to take a move or ready action to fire out a window/door? I don't think so.

And even if you did, the enemy would only be able to react if they were within 10".

So I don't see the problem. If you want to include the ability to hide, why not just extend the currrent rules re structures with regard to targeting models inside to woods, etc.?

 

[hithero]

Well if you are not in a firing position then you have to move to get there don't you? And if you are already there then you can be spotted by anything. Nobody mention taking a ready action. Are not structures/ruins part of the rule for targeting models in 'difficult ground' ie have to be within an inch to be spotted - or whatever it is.

 

[Bede]

Well if you are not in a firing position then you have to move to get there don't you? And if you are already there then you can be spotted by anything.

I'm not sure this is correct.

IIRC, the rules say that you can only be spotted at one of those firing points if you've used it to fire out (and when you have you remain spotted for one full turn after). But if you're just standing at that fire point and not using it to shoot you can't be targeted. (And in any case a move action would only trigger a reaction from troops within 10").

 

[Rabidchild]

Page 34: "Fighting from a Structure".

A model can't be attacked unless it uses a Firing Point to make an attack, and then it can be seen and targeted for the next full turn.

 

[hithero]

Page 34: "Fighting from a Structure".

A model can't be attacked unless it uses a Firing Point to make an attack, and then it can be seen and targeted for the next full turn.

So why didn't you say so earlier

How about other terrain pieces like a hedgerow, or rocky out crop can you hide in them on its edge? Would check myself but have lent rules out.

 

[Rabidchild]

The structures rules only apply to buildings, but terrain can block line of sight. So you could keep your men further than an inch away from the edge of a forest and be unseen, but artillery could still attack you.

The scenario you're talking about sounds like a fun one, I'd maybe borrow the rules from structures and say that all defenders cannot be seen or fired at indirectly until they attack or move. That would make a great article for Signs and Portents.

 

[hithero]

Thanks, it did work well first time, I'll have to try a few more times with different forces. To blow the bridge I just treated it as an infantry anti-tank attack requiring a 10 to blow. The first squad of 10 got wiped out when they reached the bridge, the next 6 laid charges that failed to do the biz and then my 3 remaining engineers with superior explosives got 4 hits on it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

That would make a great article for Signs and Portents.

I agree - any volunteers?