Spirit Rant

[gamesmeister]

OK. Next Up. Learning a spirit spell. Summon the Magic Spirit. Defeat it in spirit combat, learn spell. Cool.

Things might not be as bad for the shaman as I earlier indicated. Magic Spirits, as well as may others listed in Cults 2, have no attacks and do no damage.

Precisely, which is why the weapon skills are less important. As long as you hit more often than the spirit dodges, you'll be fine. Which is a good reason for using Bladesharp on a dagger. First, you get the bonus to hit, and second, even if the spirit dodges, you'll do a minimum of 3 damage with a Bladesharp 1. Crank it up to Bladesharp 4 and you'll be doing a minimum of 6 points of damage with every hit. That said, I'm not sure how many Practices actually have access to Metal charms - I'm guessing not many.

So defeating them is a pretty safe bet. Unless of course the summoner has no magical damage capable weapons. Maybe they just stare at eachother forever wondering what to do next.

Let's pretend that Shamans are smarter than that :wink:

Two questions: First, isn't the student dead if he loses the spirit combat because spirit combat now damages HP not MP?

No, spirits have two forms of attack. One is physical, that damages HP, the other is Possession, a simple opposed roll on Persistence. You lose, you're possessed, which is how those spirits with no attacks will get you.

Second, how can he lose against a spirit with no way of fighting in spirit combat?

See above

 

[Licheking]

My answer to Spirit combat was to not allow anyone not integrated with a Rune and not a spellcaster to be able to do anything to Spirits. Those that could would then use their Runecasting Skill/Spells or Plain POW to fight with the Spirit. If by some chance a character has a magic weapon then they could attempt to fight the spirit with that but again only if they could see it or sense it (Perception roll required), also i give Spirits free dodges against those choosing to fight it physically without entering the spirit realm.

Doing it this way means you can have the older style POW vs POW contest, but using a variety of different skills. The spirit can resist either with its POW or its weapon if it physically wants to hurt the person.

Not forgetting that those best able to deal with spirits are those with the better mental stats and therefore with the best spiritual combat damage mod. The Shaman does not require a weapon, if he does 1d4 damage with his mind alone. OK a weapon helps but why bother. Save the MPs and use your mind.

 

[Rurik]

But I digress. So a shaman needs access to magical damage to fight spirits. Fair enough. But viddy this my droogs:

Many Practices have no access to spells that can be used to damage spirits.

Now Storm Bull has all kinds of spells good for bashing in spirits incorporeal heads, but a follower of Eritha is out of luck unless they have a magic weapon.

No, not so. A Practice has access to the charms available to any other Practice within its tradition. So Eritha shamanesses have access to the same Charms as Storm Bull. That means they have access to the same magic as Storm Bull, and more importantly Daka Fal (i.e. Spirit Charms).

But Charms are analogous to Runes, not spells. In the section on learning spells on page 9 it does not state that you have access to all spells in your Tradition, only your Practice. It then goes on to say that spells available to each Practice are specifically listed for that Practice.

Furthermore, Associated Cults specifically lists which associated cults provide access to what spells. That being said, Eritha is specifically given access to all of Waha's Magic spirits - so they are OK. But not all others - Gark for example still has no access to spells that can damage spirits.

Precisely, which is why the weapon skills are less important. As long as you hit more often than the spirit dodges, you'll be fine. Which is a good reason for using Bladesharp on a dagger. First, you get the bonus to hit, and second, even if the spirit dodges, you'll do a minimum of 3 damage with a Bladesharp 1. Crank it up to Bladesharp 4 and you'll be doing a minimum of 6 points of damage with every hit. That said, I'm not sure how many Practices actually have access to Metal charms - I'm guessing not many.

Only the damage bonus from Bladesharp is magical damage - it does not make the whole weapon's damage magical. Bladesharp 1 will only ever do 1 point, whether it is cast on a dagger or great sword. That is why Fireblade or Spirit Bane are much better spells for spirit combat.

Good point about the metal charms though.

Let's pretend that Shamans are smarter than that

I've learned never to assume anyone is smarter than that....

Maybe it is my customer support experience. :wink:

No, spirits have two forms of attack. One is physical, that damages HP, the other is Possession, a simple opposed roll on Persistence. You lose, you're possessed, which is how those spirits with no attacks will get you.

OK, Magic Spirits do have the Covert Possession Trait, though it specifically says they cannot initiate spirit combat. I'm not exactly sure how learning to a spirit spell is supposed to work. It states that if the shaman reduces the spirits HP to 0 it teaches him the spell, if he fails it possesses him. How is a shaman supposed to NOT defeat the spirit (unless of course he forgets to have any magical damage available to him).

This brings up again the unresolved question from when the Companion was released: Can a spirit attempt to possess a character every Combat Action?

Some of the other spirits (Pow and Int spirits for example) that have no attack do not have any Possession trait, so are capable of no form of spirit combat. Easy pickins indeed.

 

[gamesmeister]

But Charms are analogous to Runes, not spells. In the section on learning spells on page 9 it does not state that you have access to all spells in your Tradition, only your Practice. It then goes on to say that spells available to each Practice are specifically listed for that Practice.

The section on Practioner Membership states: "The Practitioner will have automatic access to tutors who can teach all the spells listed in the [Rune] Magic chapter of Runequest and of tradition charms and spells (those only taught by their cult) up to a Magnitude of 4."

Given that, a Praxian Practitioner should be able to cast most rune magic spells, as they have access to most Charms.

Furthermore, Associated Cults specifically lists which associated cults provide access to what spells. That being said, Eritha is specifically given access to all of Waha's Magic spirits - so they are OK. But not all others - Gark for example still has no access to spells that can damage spirits.

A Gark Practitioner definitely has a problem, as he can only create Harmony and Undead Charms, and theoretically can only cast spells related to those runes. Therefore he'll need to bind spirits into Fetishes in order to cast other spells.

On that note, one thing that's not clear is whether an 'Array' is equivalent to a Tradition. If it is, Gark has access to the same Charms as Mallia, Bagog, et al.

Only the damage bonus from Bladesharp is magical damage - it does not make the whole weapon's damage magical. Bladesharp 1 will only ever do 1 point, whether it is cast on a dagger or great sword. That is why Fireblade or Spirit Bane are much better spells for spirit combat.

Ah, good point, forgot about that.

OK, Magic Spirits do have the Covert Possession Trait, though it specifically says they cannot initiate spirit combat. I'm not exactly sure how learning to a spirit spell is supposed to work. It states that if the shaman reduces the spirits HP to 0 it teaches him the spell, if he fails it possesses him. How is a shaman supposed to NOT defeat the spirit (unless of course he forgets to have any magical damage available to him).

Agreed, that sentence is very misleading.

This brings up again the unresolved question from when the Companion was released: Can a spirit attempt to possess a character every Combat Action?

Yes, don't see why not.

Some of the other spirits (Pow and Int spirits for example) that have no attack do not have any Possession trait, so are capable of no form of spirit combat. Easy pickins indeed.

Lol, didn't notice that.

 

[Flaming Gummi Ork]

For Shamans getting spirit magic I thought that they had to enter a ritual combat with the spirit and were no aloud to use any spells during the battle. I figured that meant the shaman went into somesort of trance state that alowed them to enter the spirit world and then battled there.

Say I want to gain a spirit with blade sharp, I go into a trance, enter the spirit realm, I lose my physical stats and just have my mental ones, figure my DB and Init the same way as a spirit and duke it out with the spirit. I win the spirit is bound and I have my spell, I lose the spirit uses my link to the spirit realm to take control of my body.

Now this is all based on me not really having fully read everything in Cults to and making my own assumptions. But then we all now what happens when you assume to much.
FGO

 

[EricJ]

The real question is whether it makes sense in Glorantha (or whichever game world you're using) it makes sense for characters to be beating up spirits for spells. The different levels of spirits need different levels of commitment. Let's assume that shamans understand spirits more than practitioners do.

• Charms are created and bound through the Create Rune Charm spell, which requires only successful Enchant and Summon checks. I assume that these charm spirits have little personal power and that no form of spirit combat is required. In fact, since only shamans can create charms and bind charm spirits into them, the Summon check mostly involves pleasing the spirit enough that it enters the charm; this is not a fight at all.
• Fetishes are created with the Create Practice Fetish ritual and fetish spirits are Summoned with another ritual. As written, the practitioner must fight the spirit. Unlike spirit allies, the practitioner may use defensive magic. How does a character survive his first combat? As written, the spirit will be attacking at +40%, the character will be attacking at -40%, and unless someone has enchanted his weapon, he won't be damaging the spirit at all. How does an Eirithan practitioner gain a fetish anyway? The answer has to be that the society provides some way to even this up. One can posit that practices such as fasting or drugs or holy rituals may make summoned spirits visible. Practice secrets may provide weapons that affect spirits. Don't tell anyone, but the jawbone of an ass will smite Impala spirits. More radically, some practices' Summon rituals may lead to other sorts of combat. How about a nice game of chess? What is the purpose of the Fetish cost table?
• Allies are only for experienced characters. Martial characters should be able to handle themselves, while non-martial characters may need some sort of variant, as above. At least allow characters to cast spells on their weapons.
• Spirit Magic Spell Spirits are written in a confused manner. The book states that only shamans may learn spirit spells, and it then has shamans summoning spell spirits for practitioners. I'm guessing the latter is true. In any case, I do suggest that some sort of out be given to non-martial characters. I finally noticed that one does not need to have bound a charm spirit to cast a spirit spell listing that rune. Weird.
• Great spirits are intelligent enough to express wants and make decisions; one can bargain with them.

In the end, it's probably the gamemaster's decision on how to balance spirit combat for his world. The all-or-nothing spirit possession rule, and the spirit combat rules seem anti-roleplaying to me.

 

[gamesmeister]

Fetishes are created with the Create Practice Fetish ritual and fetish spirits are Summoned with another ritual. As written, the practitioner must fight the spirit. Unlike spirit allies, the practitioner may use defensive magic. How does a character survive his first combat? As written, the spirit will be attacking at +40%, the character will be attacking at -40%, and unless someone has enchanted his weapon, he won't be damaging the spirit at all. How does an Eirithan practitioner gain a fetish anyway? The answer has to be that the society provides some way to even this up.

I think it's fair to say that when a Spiritist makes the step up to Practitioner, which will presumably include summoning his first spirit during some form of initiation rite, his shaman will cast the spells the student needs to both protect himself from the spirit and enchant his weapon in order to damage the spirit.

Spirit Magic Spell Spirits are written in a confused manner. The book states that only shamans may learn spirit spells, and it then has shamans summoning spell spirits for practitioners. I'm guessing the latter is true.

I don't have the book to hand, but I suspect that in some cases the term "shaman" refers to any practitioner of spirit worship rather than the rank of Shaman. Regardless, the section on Practitioners states that they may learn Spirit Magic spells associated with their practice.

I finally noticed that one does not need to have bound a charm spirit to cast a spirit spell listing that rune. Weird.

IIRC, you need to have a Charm for the casting rune (the one in italics), plus one other. Is that right?

In the end, it's probably the gamemaster's decision on how to balance spirit combat for his world. The all-or-nothing spirit possession rule, and the spirit combat rules seem anti-roleplaying to me.

I tend to agree with this statement, but I'll post my thoughts/suggestions on that in another thread when I get a chance

 

[soltakss]

On the original point, it does seem that Spirit Combat has been severely degraded so that anyone can do it easily.

Then they needed rules for shamans and they say "oh, shamans are different". Presumably we'll also get "Trolls are different" and "Agimori are different" and "Hsunchen are different" and whatever, until we get a series of rules for different types of animist.

I haven't had a chance to go through CoG2 with a fine-tooth-comb and pick out how the rules for spirit combat are supposed to work (new job, bad cold, no time) but it does seem that people don't have access to other RQ books when they write their own books, so we don;t get a full picture of what is supposed to be going on.

 

[Exubae]

I finally noticed that one does not need to have bound a charm spirit to cast a spirit spell listing that rune. Weird.

IIRC, you need to have a Charm for the casting rune (the one in italics), plus one other. Is that right?

Noticed that it does explicitly say in the COGII you don't need a rune or charm to cast spirit spells (i.e. Rune Magic painted Spirit magic coloured).

but earlier and later comments contradict this...

Me thinks a little Errata is needed...

 

[Exubae]

haven't had a chance to go through CoG2 with a fine-tooth-comb and pick out how the rules for spirit combat are supposed to work

You haven't missed anything on spirit combat - its still the Companion mechanic... 'Have Fire blade can bash spirits'

] ... it does seem that people don't have access to other RQ books when they write their own books, so we don;t get a full picture of what is supposed to be going on.

Or the other books haven't been finalised, a couple of the authors have let slip that the draft rules had changed while/after finishing there work.

Starting to feel sorry for the editors, having to back fill rules into the source books... and starting to see why rules heavy section seem so disjointed and at time contradictory, especially in COG.

 

[EricJ]

Noticed that it does explicitly say in the COGII you don't need a rune or charm to cast spirit spells (i.e. Rune Magic painted Spirit magic coloured).

COGII, p.10 says that the chance of casting is Summoning - ENC %. This is also the chance of ordering a fetish to act, which may include casting a spell. However, it also says earlier in that page that a caster needs his charms or fetishes to cast a spirit spell. So, I just don't know.

The section detailing the spells themselves states that the spells are intended for practitioners, but the gamesmaster may allow Rune casters with the right runes to learn them.

So, I just don't know. I'd like a clarification list too.

 

[gamesmeister]

I finally noticed that one does not need to have bound a charm spirit to cast a spirit spell listing that rune. Weird.

IIRC, you need to have a Charm for the casting rune (the one in italics), plus one other. Is that right?

Noticed that it does explicitly say in the COGII you don't need a rune or charm to cast spirit spells (i.e. Rune Magic painted Spirit magic coloured).

but earlier and later comments contradict this...

Me thinks a little Errata is needed...

I've looked everywhere for this quote, but can't find it anywhere...can you post a page no please

 

[Exubae]

I've looked everywhere for this quote, but can't find it anywhere...can you post a page no please

I'm at work, at the moment but ...
I think it is on the first page of Spirit magic.. The Brief Summary...
I'll check when I get back.

 

[Voriof]

The section detailing the spells themselves states that the spells are intended for practitioners, but the gamesmaster may allow Rune casters with the right runes to learn them.

This change bothers me a lot as many of the proprietary divine spells were unexpectedly converted to rune spells/spirit spells. This changes the way things work in Gloratha fairly radically for many cults and puts out many of the rarer spells out into common usage.

Jeff