Space Stations, Possible Errors

[Jeff Hopper]

OK, I'm looking at Supplement 14 Space Stations because I wanted to try and design a large space colony like an O'Neill Cylinder a Bernal Sphere or a Stanford Torus and I am running into some problems.

The first problem I am running into is that the main limiting factor on size for a space station is not so much the tech level of the Hull, but the tech level of the Computer. While I can understand the complexities of running a space station of a certain size will definitely require some automated control to keep the environment and the structure stable, the hull tonnage per tech level is lower for a space station than the hull tonnage per tech level listed in Book 2 High Guard for a jump-capable starship (which needs a more capable and complex computer). This does not make a lot of sense to me when I think about it. Now, a possible solution to this is to make the tech level steps linear (7,8,9,10,11,12,13) instead of what it is currently (7,9,11,12,13,14,15).

The second problem is the power plant. The types listed all require fuel to operate and I find no option for either fission power plants or solar panels. Solar panels would be ideal for a space station because if it is located around any star - the power is free, you only pay for maintenance upkeep. All of the power plant options from the Core Rulebook and High Guard should be available for a space station and included.

The section on Crew Quarters and Residential Space needs to have a paragraph equating the two different types of housing. Barracks would be equal to low quality housing, enlisted would have mid-quality housing, junior officers would have high quality housing, and senior officers or crew chiefs would have luxurious quality housing.

There should also be some additions for closed loop life support systems because the point of a space station is to be permanent, which goes along with being self-sufficient. An agricultural manufacturing plant can represent a hydroponics and aeroponics system with its included small animals (rabbits, chickens, guinea pigs, tilapia), and waste treatment system. A good thumbrule is to say that a closed loop life support system can maintain itself for a number of years equal to the space station tech level before it needs to have trace elements and other expendable materials replaced from an outside source.

I know that this reads like a series of complaints, and I acknowledge that it is, but I am more than willing to also provide possible solutions to these problems I see.

EDIT:

Oh, and there is no reason why a space station cannot use a planetoid or a buffered planetoid as a hull. We should be able to create a station like the one pictured below by Peter Elson.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Space Stations is not a Traveller setting book. It's yellow-titled.

 

[Condottiere]

1. You can borrow an appropriate power plant from HG, including fission. And solar panels.

2. You can run the space station as either a series of independent modules, each with it's own computer, or you prototype the appropriate computer model a tech level lower.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

1. You can borrow an appropriate power plant from HG, including fission. And solar panels.

2. You can run the space station as either a series of independent modules, each with it's own computer, or you prototype the appropriate computer model a tech level lower.

Yes, but I do not see where it says that in the book. Could you tell me where it states that in the book?

 

[-Daniel-]

Space Stations is not a Traveller setting book. It's yellow-titled.

Not sure I understand. How does this relate to his post?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Space Stations is not a Traveller setting book. It's yellow-titled.

Not sure I understand. How does this relate to his post?

Green-titled books are Traveller-centric books. Yellow-titled books are generic-use books for any setting, so they don't need to follow tech levels, ship stats, sector regions that the green-titled books are written for. In other words, not an error.

 

[phavoc]

Space Stations is not a Traveller setting book. It's yellow-titled.

Not sure I understand. How does this relate to his post?

Green-titled books are Traveller-centric books. Yellow-titled books are generic-use books for any setting, so they don't need to follow tech levels, ship stats, sector regions that the green-titled books are written for. In other words, not an error.

That's not really a good answer, and runs counter to the official description of the supplements:

Traveller is highly adaptable and while the core rulebook is very complete, a referee or player may often find a need in his campaign to expand in a particular direction, or perhaps they are just looking for an easier way to do things. This is where the core supplement line steps in.

All of these supplements are suitable for use with any Traveller setting, from the Third Imperium to Judge Dredd and beyond!

So, Mongoose says "supplements are suitable for use with any Traveller setting", ergo they must be suitable (i.e. you can integrate) for Traveller. The point raised was that there are some inconsistencies in the books. Which is not a surprise, since that's kind of an unfortunate norm.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Their not meant to be consistent. Not every referee is going to want to use Traveller stats for their game. I use the Mongoose Traveller rules for all types of settings. Not just Traveller, and not just sci-fi.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Some military stations wilt install a larger than necessary power plant in order to carry a larger amount of heavy weaponry. Power plant sizes change depending on Tech Level, as described on Page 63 of Book 2. High Guard.

2. Independent modules is an extrapolation, each being autonomous and controlled by it's own computer, with possibly an extra computer that keeps in touch with all the others, allowing a general monitoring of the entire station and give instructions to individual computers, who then carry them out.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

1. Some military stations wilt install a larger than necessary power plant in order to carry a larger amount of heavy weaponry. Power plant sizes change depending on Tech Level, as described on Page 63 of Book 2. High Guard.

2. Independent modules is an extrapolation, each being autonomous and controlled by it's own computer, with possibly an extra computer that keeps in touch with all the others, allowing a general monitoring of the entire station and give instructions to individual computers, who then carry them out.

Could you give the page number in Space Stations for that #1 response above please? And how are you supposed to figure out the increased size of the power plant for those extra heavy weapons? Now, while the quote you pulled does tell me about power plant size, it does not address power plant type (like solar panel or fission plant), so where can I find that?

 

[Condottiere]

1.
a) SS/page 5
b) The clue is that both SS and HG use the same percentages and costs to calculate factor one engineering, and if you can exchange engines, you can also use substitutes and add-ons, such as batteries, solar panels and fission reactors.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

b) The clue is that both SS and HG use the same percentages and costs to calculate factor one engineering, and if you can exchange engines, you can also use substitutes and add-ons, such as batteries, solar panels and fission reactors.

So, where does it specifically say that in the book? Because the power plant percentage of hull numbers from Space Station do not match the power plant table numbers from High Guard. There is nothing listed about exchanges or add-ons in power plants.

Or are you just extrapolating again?

 

[Condottiere]

If you take a look on the last line on page five, it will tell you that a geostationary power plant takes up one and a half percent of hull volume, and costs two and a half million schmuckers; it's good for one bay weapon per thousand tonnes and a screen

If you compare this to HG/page 63, it will tell you that a factor one power plant takes up one and a half percent of hull volume (and incidentally, gives the option for the fission plant), and on the next page, you'll find it's good for one bay weapon per thousand tonnes and a screen.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

If you take a look on the last line on page five, it will tell you that a geostationary power plant takes up one and a half percent of hull volume, and costs two and a half million schmuckers; it's good for one bay weapon per thousand tonnes and a screen

If you compare this to HG/page 63, it will tell you that a factor one power plant takes up one and a half percent of hull volume (and incidentally, gives the option for the fission plant), and on the next page, you'll find it's good for one bay weapon per thousand tonnes and a screen.

So, yes, you are just extrapolating. Got it.

I can do that too. It is just that I think it could improve the game and sales if there were defined design rules for this sort of thing, because if I am just going to extrapolate what to do with the rules then why did I purchase them?

 

[Condottiere]

It's up to the reader to interpret the rules, though ... Some military stations wilt install a larger than necessary power plant in order to carry a larger amount of heavy weaponry. Power plant sizes change depending on Tech Level, as described on Page 63 of Book 2. High Guard. ... seems to give pretty explicit permission.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

It's up to the reader to interpret the rules, though ... Some military stations wilt install a larger than necessary power plant in order to carry a larger amount of heavy weaponry. Power plant sizes change depending on Tech Level, as described on Page 63 of Book 2. High Guard. ... seems to give pretty explicit permission.

In your personal interpretation, not in what the rules actually state.

 

[Condottiere]

If you check out SS/page 80, there is a practical application of that rule.

Now, I do think Mongoose should be more explicit in phrasing rules, but this does seem pretty cut and dried.

 

[Anonymous]

Jeff,

This is a general comment about the issues you're seeing, I don't have a plain and simple answer for you. I think Condottiere has pretty much explained things as I think they should play out.

Most of the rule books for Mongoose have similar issues. It's hard to know if it was by design - they want for us to fill the details or if they messed up and just plain didn't write/explain things well.

I'm trying to move past the issue, I've spent way too much time pulling my hair out. I am now bald. :mrgreen:

As I see it, Traveller becomes a My Traveller Universe the moment you start playing it. There is only one real Traveller universe and you only see that if you're lucky enough to be one of MWM's players. We try to keep house rules to a minimum but there's a growing file of clarifications - ways that we are choosing to interpret the rules that aren't obvious in the game we play. It makes for more work cos the rules don't lay it out for you, in all honesty I think that's part of what keeps Traveller's appeal limited.

But I digress...

 

[-Daniel-]

Space Stations is not a Traveller setting book. It's yellow-titled.

Not sure I understand. How does this relate to his post?

Green-titled books are Traveller-centric books. Yellow-titled books are generic-use books for any setting, so they don't need to follow tech levels, ship stats, sector regions that the green-titled books are written for. In other words, not an error.

Thanks ShawnDriscoll. I was unclear that the Yellow Titled books were not going to be Traveller books despite having Traveller on the cover. Good to know before I buy any more.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks ShawnDriscoll. I was unclear that the Yellow Titled books were not going to be Traveller books despite having Traveller on the cover. Good to know before I buy any more.

Phavoc's answer is quoted from Mongoose, it is from the horses mouth, not skewed by opinion.

The old debate over whether Mongoose Traveller is a setting or a rule set is one for the Grognards, I'll step away now...