Sorcery Magnitude question

[Deleriad]

a) a non manipulated Sorcery spell is cast at Magnitude 0, not 1

b) a failed casting always costs 1 Magic Point

c) Fly's description is clearly wong and must be corrected. 5 SIZ per Magnitude, and the number of targets determined by Manipulation(Targets) could be adequate.

d) Dominate is wrong and must be corrected. A minimum of 1 Magnitude per 5 Characteristic points in the target's highest characteristic could be a good idea.

I thought this was a really useful post and I liked the analysis from play. I tend to go with b rather than a because it makes skill important and, effectively, gives sorcerers "cantrips" and prevents most abuses. It's an MGF answer. As you say, several spells need rewrites to ensure that Magnitude always matters. CoG2 is actually rather good at this but the SpellBook is a serial offender.

Some spells actually need up-powering. The illusions are a good example. In order to make an opaque illusion such as a small piece of cardboard the sorcerer needs 200% in Manipulation (magnitude) and it only stays around while they concentrate. If they wish to do anything useful with illusion spells then they need to combine 2 or 3 which makes it even harder.

 

[Rurik]

...but in Rurik's pbem I am playing a sorcerer...

And I would just like to take a moment to thank all the participants of this thread for giving Rosen all kinds of ideas on how to abuse sorcery in my game.

I plan on continuing the game with the latest rules at written (only a couple changes to facilitate PBP) for the first couple 'chapters' unless faced with a glaring problem. So far so good.

I think 0 magnitude cantrip effects are cool for sorcerers, and like that a skilled sorcerer can cast powerful spells a few times using his own MP rather than having to rely on stored points. A typical sorcerer in RQ3 could cast a spell with a cost of around 10 or 11 total cost exactly 1 time before having to tap into stored POW.

Also, in RQ3 enchanting and binding was much 'cheaper' in the sense that the POW invested was so much easier to recover, so in RQ3 every decent caster could manage access to husge amounts of external MP before too long. In MRQ stored POW is not created so easily, and I think in general will be less abundant, so costs should be less.

 

[Rurik]

Additionally, one thing I will say on a kind of related note, is that I have understimated the effect of the removal of total HP on direct damage effects.

After Rosen throwing around 2d6 Firebolts (from Magic of Glorantha), and being one Improvement Roll away from 3d6 Firebolts, I am less afraid of Skybolt, and may even unban it.

Disruption, on the other hand, definately has received the short end of the stick, and should be at least a d4, if not even a d6 (probably a D4 though).

 

[Homunculus]

Wow, I did not expect so much response to my question and problem. Thank you everyone.

Yeah, Sorcery seems very unbalanced. We have agreed on a house rule that all spells, regardless of their type, cost magic points equal to their magnitude. Failed spells only cost one magic point, and cantrips do not cost any magic points at 0 level. This way, spells that cause damage and spells that prevent damage are based off the MPs spent to 'empower' the spell rather then the general one MP for any magnitude level.

I think the whole sorcery system itself needs some house rules added to balance out. When I picked up Runequest and started to run it for my group, I was really excited 'cause I believed that it would be balanced and flexible. But the more we play, the more house rules we have to add.

I really like some of the ideas above, and will be incorporating them into my game. In particular, I'll be using the four ideas from RosenMcStern in the game.

But, please do not stop this thread! The ideas and opinions everyone have on how to rectify this system is great If anyone is interested, I'll try to post my final house rule modifications to sorcery once I get them typed into a file for my game group in Colorado.

 

[Sinisalo]

We have agreed on a house rule that all spells, regardless of their type, cost magic points equal to their magnitude.

I think that's the right answer but targets needs to be looked at: + 1 mp to affect skill/10 targets is wrong as well. IMHO

 

[Magistus]

If anyone is interested, I'll try to post my final house rule modifications to sorcery once I get them typed into a file for my game group in Colorado.

And as always this is something perfect to put on the wiki.

 

[Deleriad]

I actually think that making sorcerers pay "full price" for magnitude and other manipulations would completely nerf sorcery. In RQ3 (where the system originated) the balance was that sorcerers were more powerful but had to spend a shed-load of MPs to cast magic therefore, before you started, you needed to get yourself a couple of POW spirits and maybe an INT spirit. With a pool of about 30 MPs you had a chance of casting 4-5 spells in a play session. Basically, if you started out with a sorcerer you could do very little with the character from the get-go.

If you add that into MRQ you have to start making enchantments too but whereas in RQ3 it was fairly easy to get the POW you lost back, in MRQ it is not. And you have to learn yet more skills.

The beauty of MRQ sorcery is that you can roll up a sorcerer with a couple of spells and couple of manipulations and you can do things straight away. The in-game progression of a sorcerer is more linear than it was in RQ3 where your sorcerer was either useless or god-like without much of a sweet-spot of playability and there is a lot less book-keeping involved.

I actually think that the only thing the system needs is a 1 MP cost for failing to cast a spell to cut down on free-cast abuse and, more annoyingly, several spells to be re-written so that they scale properly with magnitude.

I'll post my intended revisions here and in the wiki sometime soon to invite comments.

 

[Sinisalo]

The beauty of MRQ sorcery is that you can roll up a sorcerer with a couple of spells and couple of manipulations and you can do things straight away. The in-game progression of a sorcerer is more linear than it was in RQ3 where your sorcerer was either useless or god-like without much of a sweet-spot of playability and there is a lot less book-keeping involved.

Agreed, RQ3 sorcery was way too complicated and very hard to progress in. MRQ has gone to the other extreme. As i've posted before a newly rolled up sorceror is likely to be able to fly three people at the same time for 2 magic points in total, one time in three. And that's not really a killer to a game but look at the post that started the thread. 5 magnitude Damage Resistance on 5 people 50% of the time for 2 magic points. That is a pain in the neck for the GM.

1 magic point per magnitude should have been the way to go, with maybe 1 mp per target if you wanted a streamlined sorcery system.

 

[Voriof]

One comment - in Glorantha the spell availablity is cult/order/school restricted. That's of some use, I think. None of this 'every spell available for everyone who practices sorcery' nonsense.

Jeff

 

[soltakss]

As it should be everywhere in any setting.

The time-consuming part is writing up the schools properly.

 

[Deleriad]

1 magic point per magnitude should have been the way to go, with maybe 1 mp per target if you wanted a streamlined sorcery system.

Depends on what you want a sorcerer to be able to do in a game session. For example, you have a competent sorcerer who wants to cast Damage Resistance 6 on himself and 4 friends.

If this costs 10MP then he, presumably, has 8 MPs left for the rest of the evening and at 1MP per magnitude that's possibly enough for 1 or 2 important spells. This is possiblty rather boring for the player. RQ3 "solved" this by making it relatively easy to build quite large MP reservoirs (through sacrificing and regaining POW) so that a sorceror at this level might have access to 30 stored MPs - enough for, say, 6 spells at an average Magnitude of 5.

In MRQ, it is horribly hard to regain POW going by the book and the sorcerer is putting most of their effort into building their skills rather than getting access to stored MPs. An MRQ sorcerer with POW 18 is, possibly, hoping to be able to cast 6-10 spells using their own MPs (and maybe some unmanipulated cantrips).

When all is said and done, at this level the MRQ sorcerer and RQ3 sorcerer are actually doing roughly the same thing only the MRQ sorcerer needs less bookeeping and doesn't have to carry around a bunch of matrices.

As for the MP cost, for what it's worth, I've tended to characterise the 3 magic systems as this:
Rune Magic - incredibly personally demanding because you are getting no "aid" to accomplish magic.
Divine Magic - no MP cost because it's all done for you.
Sorcery - like rune magic with a pulley system. It doesn't take you as many MPs as the equivalent of rune magic but the extra manipulation lets you lift heavier weights, as it were.

 

[Snowedunder]

I lot of whats been said in this thread, whilst technically correct in the eyes of the law (the rules of the game), only applies if you are trying to find loopholes in the system like its some kind of legal contract. I'd hope that in most gaming groups, players would be aware that certain actions would be against the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter.

Also GMs have control on what spells players are able to access or find or be tutored in. If sorcery is so powerful and so easy to abuse - would the most powerful sorcerers go around teaching every passing would-be gandalf FLY for only 10 gold ducats?? Or would they perhaps jealously guard and horde their arcane secrets meaning the only way for the player to obtain FLY for his character is to assault the sorcerer's tower/lab/whatever - a perlious adventure intself - and the reward should surely be great power - the FLY spell.

Also sorcery IS powerful - and for every player character wielding these powers theres another 10 enemy spell casters lurking in the wings with countermagics at the ready.

Use common sense - the rules of the system have some peculiarities - don't get caught up in them and let them take over. GM's control your games - players don't abuse the rules - it detracts from the fun for you and for other players.

Thoughts???

 

[kintire]

Deleriad

The 0MP cost means that you can learn a spell at no more than base cost and always cast it successfully without ever needing to learn any more. For example, a warrior from a socererous background has learned Damage Boost at base score (cost him 2 Improvement Rolls) and he now has Damage Boost (25%). Before he goes into battle he spends some time casting DB and on average it'll take him 4 attempts, about 10 seconds. For the next 10-12 minutes his sword does +1 damage and it has cost him nothing. Now this is not game-breaking but it certainly doesn't feel right.

Well, it's all a matter of taste I suppose but it seems fine to me. We get involved in combats in roughly four ways: PCs Attack! : Enemy Attacks! : Negotiations Collapse : and PCs and Enemies Stumble On To Each Other. Only in the PCs Attack scenario would the warrior HAVE four rounds to buff his sword. In Enemy Attacks you have none, and in the other two you might have a short time while the enemy buffs up, but you'd probably be better off slugging them before they can. And what does he get? +1 damage? well, okay. Given he gave up 2-10% in a skill, I reckon +1 damage in about a quarter of his fights is fair.

Frankly, I play in Glorantha. And in previous iterations of Glorantha you shot funny looks at any warrior who entered battle without some sort of weapon enhancing spell. +1 damage? meh.

The related issue is that many of the write-ups for sorcery spells don't seem to pay attention to what happens if you use the spell without manipulation. For example, an average peasant who was taught the Fly spell last week could fly 300 fully-loaded dwarves over a 20m castle wall in an afternoon for no MP cost.

If his POW was high enough, yes he could. And?

Incidentally, how did this peasent learn the fly spell? and if his POW is higher than a fully loaded dwarf's SIZ why is he still a peasant? Why has no one developed this valuable asset? And what's with this overwhelming snobbery against peasants, as if they should never learn any magic? Are you a Yelmite?

Most of the 0MP cost abuse is stupid rather than broken though there are some specific spells which give you far too much bang for your 0MPs.

Well, I won't pretend to have read every spell in the spellbook, or even most of them, but if they do have this problem its a spell issue not a system one. And bear in mind that anyone attacking a known sorcerer without magical protection is in for trouble anyway, and any magical protection at all will stop a mag 1 spell cold.

Ironically, as you say, if you want to play a proper sorcerer the system is horribly restrictive as you need to improve too many skills at the same time. You could try to argue that the 0MP cost is a feature not a bug that allows a sorcerer to know lots of spells at low skill levels but I don't buy that.

Actually I mostly like this, as it means that sorcerers, while potent, have a limited range of effects. Otherwise, they really would be overpowered. And yes I do argue that the 0MP feature corrects for this.


Homunculus

Yeah, Sorcery seems very unbalanced. We have agreed on a house rule that all spells, regardless of their type, cost magic points equal to their magnitude. Failed spells only cost one magic point, and cantrips do not cost any magic points at 0 level. This way, spells that cause damage and spells that prevent damage are based off the MPs spent to 'empower' the spell rather then the general one MP for any magnitude level.

yyyesss. You know, I played AD&D wizards a while ago. I remember the days when you cast one or two spells per session and that was your sum contribution to the group.

It sucked.

Either you are handing out way to much extra MPs, or Sorcerers might just as well stay home.


Sinsalo

Agreed, RQ3 sorcery was way too complicated and very hard to progress in. MRQ has gone to the other extreme. As i've posted before a newly rolled up sorceror is likely to be able to fly three people at the same time for 2 magic points in total, one time in three. And that's not really a killer to a game but look at the post that started the thread. 5 magnitude Damage Resistance on 5 people 50% of the time for 2 magic points. That is a pain in the neck for the GM.

Again with the fly thing. A newly rolled up sorcerer can fly three people at about two thirds walking pace, while doing nothing else. I am underwhelmed by the overpoweredness of this ability. A newly rolled up warrior can slug someone for 15 points of damage in a system where 8 can kill you instantly. I am noticeably more worried about that than walking-pace aeronautics.

And Damage resistance 5? useful against trollkin with slings, perhaps, but any decent warrior will largely ignore it.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Use common sense - the rules of the system have some peculiarities - don't get caught up in them and let them take over. GM's control your games - players don't abuse the rules - it detracts from the fun for you and for other players.

That is indeed very good advice. No system is perfect.

I do think that MRQ sorcery is an improvement on its predecessors. I even like 0 MP spells, as long as their effects are minor.

However, it would be nicer if there weren't quite so many loopholes in the spells as written, and some consistency behind how each one operated... It'd prevent the GM from getting blindsided by creative players, and reduce the need for (what currently seems) ad-hoc houseruling on almost every other spell in the books.

 

[Rurik]

I lot of whats been said in this thread, whilst technically correct in the eyes of the law (the rules of the game), only applies if you are trying to find loopholes in the system like its some kind of legal contract. I'd hope that in most gaming groups, players would be aware that certain actions would be against the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter.

Also GMs have control on what spells players are able to access or find or be tutored in. If sorcery is so powerful and so easy to abuse - would the most powerful sorcerers go around teaching every passing would-be gandalf FLY for only 10 gold ducats?? Or would they perhaps jealously guard and horde their arcane secrets meaning the only way for the player to obtain FLY for his character is to assault the sorcerer's tower/lab/whatever - a perlious adventure intself - and the reward should surely be great power - the FLY spell.

Also sorcery IS powerful - and for every player character wielding these powers theres another 10 enemy spell casters lurking in the wings with countermagics at the ready.

Use common sense - the rules of the system have some peculiarities - don't get caught up in them and let them take over. GM's control your games - players don't abuse the rules - it detracts from the fun for you and for other players.

Thoughts???

All very good points. The problem is how pervasive some of the issues are. I'm not here for the purpose of bashing the game - I want to play it and enjoy it. I can say from experience that the number of issues with some of the rules has made it a hard sell. I know one play group will not touch it with a 10 foot pole now - the number of issues that came up in short exposure to the game coupled with what was seen as a high asking price (sepecially considering all the issues) for the books closed that door forever.

Having to apply common sense in a game is a part of gaming, and no rules system is perfect, but there comes a point where the rules are working against you when you find yourself constantly having fix things on the fly.

 

[Rurik]

Well, I won't pretend to have read every spell in the spellbook, or even most of them, but if they do have this problem its a spell issue not a system one.

I agree that sorcery in MRQ is not broken and I think it is an improvement over RQ3. Maybe a tweak in needed to prevent 0 cost unlimited casting, maybe not, but that issue is minor.

I also agree the problems are with individual spells, but if a considerable number of spells in the various supplements are messed up in some way it becomes a system problem. People will say MRQ sorcery is cocked, when in fact the underlying system is fine.

 

[Cleombrotus]

I lot of whats been said in this thread, whilst technically correct in the eyes of the law (the rules of the game), only applies if you are trying to find loopholes in the system like its some kind of legal contract. I'd hope that in most gaming groups, players would be aware that certain actions would be against the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter.

I'd personally get frustrated with a bunch of players who didn't do exactly that (use the rules to their advantage, that is). I think that the games where people go along with the extremely relative idea of 'the spirit of the game' tend to be ones where the GM is being rather self-indulgent. Players do this stuff when they care. When they don't care, they'll happily go along with your version of the 'spirit' and follow your storylines, etc, etc. I want players who push boundaries. It's my job to keep the game balanced. Become as powerful as you like, if that's your thing. Is there anyone who actually thinks that you can't find a counter-weight for anything that the players achieve or gain?

One of the coolest things about rq (as was, at least) is that it lets players push at the boundaries of a consistent framework. part of the issue with MRQ seems to be the idea of a generic/'throw enough **** at the wall and some of it will stick' approach at the expense of playtesting...[/quote]

 

[Deleriad]

Well I've been quite critical. My standpoint is that MRQ sorcery is a massive improvement on RQ3. Because I think it's also good to offer suggestions these are the system wide patches I would use. I've also put these on the MRQ wiki (link at end). The idea is to figure out what the absolute minimal fixes are that I would want to run MRQ sorcery 1.1 (as it were). I'm not going to suggest individual spell revisions. Also, I'm taking it as a positive that it is possible to cast "cantrip" versions of sorcery spells for 0 Magic Points.

Suggested rules changes:

If a Sorcery spellcasting test results in a failure, the spell fails and the sorcerer loses 1 Magic Point, in addition to the Magic Point cost for any Manipulation effects.

Sorcery spells cannot be overcharged.

Additional Spell Traits
Duration (Concentration). The spell stays in effect for its normal Duration but, the caster must concentrate while manipulating the spell. If the caster’s concentration is broken while they are manipulating the spell, the spell ends.

Duration (Tigger). As per the Trigger trait, the spell will lie dormant until an event stated in the description takes place. The spell then takes effect and is expended. However, if the spell is not triggered before the duration ends then the spell ends without effect.

Magnitude X. A spell with Magnitude X is more powerful than a normal spell, more difficult to cast and more draining to the sorcerer. A spell with Magnitude X must be cast at a magnitude at least equal to X and the Magic Point cost of the spell is X instead of the usual 0. Thus a Magnitude 5 spell will need to be cast at a minimum of Magnitude 5 and will cost the sorcerer 5 MPs (in addition to the normal Manipulation costs). If a Magnitude X spell fails, it costs the sorcerer X Magic Points instead of the usual 1. Note that a Magnitude X spell can be cast at higher Magnitude than X, the X simply measures the absolute minimum needed to successfully cast the spell.

Ritual (X). The casting time for this type of spell is measured in hours, not combat actions. If there is a value given for X, then the sorcerer must sacrifice X of their personal POW as part of the cost of the spell.

Enchant. Any spell with the Enchant trait requires successful use of the Enchant skill as well as the normal spell skills. An Enchantment is also a Ritual and the amount of POW that needs to be spent will be found in the spell description.

Summon. Any spell with the Summon trait requires successful use of the Summon skill as well as the normal spell skills. A Summoning is also a Ritual but as a default it doesn’t require any POW to be sacrificed.

Wiki it: http://mrqwiki.com/wiki/index.php/MRQ_Sorcery_Revisions

 

[Rurik]

Suggested rules changes:

Very Nice. A couple of questions/comments though.

Sorcery spells cannot be overcharged.

Is there a reason for this? It seems unfair if the target can still use MP to resist spells.

Enchant. Any spell with the Enchant trait requires successful use of the Enchant skill as well as the normal spell skills. An Enchantment is also a Ritual and the amount of POW that needs to be spent will be found in the spell description.

Making someone roll 2 skills greatly reduces the chances of success, especially if their skills are in the 60% or less range. Maybe use the lower of the two (So your chance can't exceed your enchanting skill even if yoyr spell skill is higher) but use only one roll.

Summon. Any spell with the Summon trait requires successful use of the Summon skill as well as the normal spell skills. A Summoning is also a Ritual but as a default it doesn’t require any POW to be sacrificed.

As per Enchanting, though this has me thinking wether anyone other than Spirit Magicians should even have to learn the Summoning skill. Sorcerers will have their Summon(Species) spell % and Divine Magicians will have the spell at their Theology %. Spirit magicians use the Skill for other purposes (casting spells, etc), but do the other schools really need it considereing they have to know the appropriate spell as well?

Enchanting is a slightly different case as there are enchanting rules that don't rely on specific spells, but in no case is there a summoning you can do without knowing a summon spell.

Just my two cents.

 

[Voriof]

Enchant. Any spell with the Enchant trait requires successful use of the Enchant skill as well as the normal spell skills. An Enchantment is also a Ritual and the amount of POW that needs to be spent will be found in the spell description.ed.

No, forcing two skill rolls is annoying. I prefer to use the Enchant skill. Since Enchantments take place over a relatively longer period of time - hours or days - its not quite the same as a sorcery skill. I try to avoid creeping incompetence when possible when considering game design.

Jeff