Sorcery issues

[Clovenhoof]

In the last few days, I had a closer look at the Sorcery rules. I need a good (bad) villain for my campaign, and it may be that a player joins who wants to play a sorcerer. So, I have several questions or matters for discussion.

1.) Sacrifices. I had simply assumed that sacrifcing living beings, especially sentient beings, could cause Corruption. But now I looked it up in the feat description, in the corruption rules, and the spells -- nowhere is there any mention that human sacrifices cause corruption saves. This surprises me. Let's discuss.
Personally, I'd think that _at least_ Tortured Sacrifice should cause a corruption check, as well as spells that have Tortured Sacrifice as a prereq.

2.) With sacrifices causing no corruption, I don't see why sorcerers should run a particular risk of being corrupted at all, as long as they stay clear from Demonic Pacts. According to the rules - unless I overlook something - not even Necromancy spells like Black Plague cause corruption. How do you handle that?

3.) Sacrifices, part 2: apparently you can sacrifice any creature for PP, not just humans or sapient beings. I find this a bit counter-intuitive. How about reducing the exchange rates for creatures of animal intelligence?

4.) Spell: I was surprised to find what I think to be the deadliest (combat-suitable) spell in the game in a category that I have overlooked so far: Dread Serpent, a Hypnotism. Consider this:
- Evil Eye and 20 ft range: difficult to avoid. I am talking about the "staff" method of this spell.
- Save or Die effect against Will rather than Fort. Will is the lowest save for most classes.
- effective level requirement, Scholar level 8. This is the earliest Save or Die spell in the game.
- no target level restriction. Other spells often affect only creatures with less than a certain amount of HD/levels.
- cast in one standard action. Many other Save or Die spells take much longer to cast. You can even walk away after casting it.
- cheap. You need a 50sp staff, which can even be reused, and it costs only 3PP, and if you have Opportunistic Sacrifice, the spell is likely to fill you up to Max PP (for example if you kill a level 10 fighter with it).
- some races get a specific penalty on saves against Hypnotism, making this spell even easier to succeed.

Countermeasures?
Well, first off, I think as a GM, I'd allow the use of a Fate Point for the victim to drop unconscious/disabled rather than dead.
Apart from that, while the description doesn't say so specifically, I guess the victim's allies can try to help him during the round that he is "fighting the serpent".
- Killing the sorcerer before his next action (thus, before one full round is over) should solve the problem, due to the Rule of Impermanence.
- Countermagic, if cast in time, should help.
- And what if someone simply walks up to victim, picks up the staff and hurls it away? I think that should also end the spell.
What do you think?

5.) Character planning: I find it very difficult to even create a high-level (10+) sorcerer, due to all the prerequisites for the various spells. If you don't carefully plan your sorcerer in advance, you may often be unable to pick an Advanced Spell because you don't meet the prereqs.
So - show me your sorcerer builds, please. =)

EDIT: fixed list numbers.

 

[Spectator]

to answer your questions:
1. Correct. But should torture get a corruption point. Remember corruption is designed for dealing with mind-blasting eldritch horrors, demons, Cthulu, etc. Torture in itself, although not pleasant won't cause you to become 'corrupt' and grow horns out of your head.
2. Correct. I am not a big fan of the sacrifice feats. I actually prefer my sorcerors to be non-corrupt or if they are bad guys to use the debaucher feat per Skrolls of Skelos to gain PP if they are corrupt.
3. Why not be able to get power points for sacrificing a healthy farm animal (we call it a sacrificial cow in english). Check out Thulsa's great website and there is a specific link to PP sacrifice: http://hyboria.xoth.net/rules/house_rules_conan_ogl.htm
4.Dread serpent is a deadly spell, essentially you are very likely to die. I think the countermeasures are fine, except for picking up the staff. I suppose the spell makes the staff look like a snake to all who see it (so no grabbing the staff) or it makes it look like a snake only to the victim (so his buddies might say 'stupid dude in robe' threw a stick at the ground, hah hah, throws like a girl, could not even hit my buddy, priests are so gay.) in which no-one intervenes for lack of any reason to and your victim dies.
The Warding spell could be done, but by the time it was cast he would be dead, right?

Sorceror builds: Yes there are a lot of pesky pre-reqs. Generally the least pre-reqs are found in Divianation, Hypnotism, and Telekinesis, oh yeah also Counterspells. If you roll with those you can make a pretty effective non-corrupt scholar. Telekinesis and Hypnotism are my favorites, not too flashy, very Howard-esque, and incredibly effective and versatile. Why kill your attacker when you can 'dominate' him to give you his weapon, horse, gold, girlfriend, and tell him to sunbathe and relax on the hyrkanian step, hey everybody's doing this time of year (february), oh yeah, don't worry about all the stuff you gave me, I'm taking it to get cleaned and repaired in Agrapur and I'll be back soon.
Or with Greater Telekinesis you could snatch the arrows out of the nomads quiver so he has nothing to shoot at you, the lance from his hand, or if you want to be mean cast a Savage beast spell on his horse and have that horse go apeshit and bite the other horses in the nomads group.
PS don't waste your aadvanced spell on Dance of the Cobras, way too complicated and expensive.
I always think back to the movies and books, Thulsa Doom's basic 'entrance' spell was pretty effective on Conan's mom, she dropped her sword, and he chopped her head off. Not flashy, very low magic, but effective.
Khemsa, from People of the Black Circle is one of my favorite sorcerors since he is such a hypnotic bad-ass.


Sure, having a Baboon demon of Set to kick ass for you when you go into combat would be great but there are costs to that whether in money, sanity or your soul.

At the same time I think it is utterly boring if you pull out your combat demon when you get in trouble, that's why I never was a big fan of the Summoning style.

I will post a copy of a 9th level and 13th level sorceror for you shortly, I need to get them from paper to computer. I do have Skrolls of Skelos so if you are without that there are some feats/ spells I use from there that are not in the core book. With 1st edition Conan it is the most important secondary book, IMHO.

You are absolutely correct that making a strong sorceror can be tough.

 

[Spectator]

A side note on Divination, used properly, it can be awesome. Remember knowledge is power. One of my favorite spell groups since it really is in the spirit of REH.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks for the reply.

re 1/2: well I guess you have a point there. But at least it should be impossible to maintain a code of honour if you draw your power from human sacrifices.

re 3: I think that animals can provide PP, but I also think that a human - or other intelligent being - offers more PP in the event of its sacrification.

By the way, I really wonder how they are going to fix Defensive Blast. As the site you link points out, it can be a perpetuum mobile in combination with Opportunistic Sacrifice. Maybe the simplest solution would be if the sorcerer would be fatigued as a result and could not use magic for the rest of the day, even if he replenishes his PP.

re 4.: indeed, Greater Warding has a too long casting time to be of effect.
However, the spell description clearly says that only the victim is under the illusion of the staff transforming to a snake. So if the victim's allies are quick on their feet, they may realize what's going on and help. If they lack the insight, however, they are likely to react the way you described so amusingly. (Still, they hopefully get the idea that killing the sorcerer asap is a good idea)

Looking forward to your builds. I'm also trying one again.

 

[Krushnak]

one of the ways of protecting against the snake staff is the Master Warding spell from Scrolls of Skelos, this requires you to cast it in advance but if you know your going to be facing a sorceror one would assume you would cast it just in case. spells like it are a reason why i always take iron will no matter what character im playing.

for corruption i award up to 4 points for doing 'normal' depraved things such as cold blooded murder, excessive torture etc. but going beyond those 4 points which make you a cynical detached bastard requires some contact with the otherwordly.

re 3: I think that animals can provide PP, but I also think that a human - or other intelligent being - offers more PP in the event of its sacrification.

its the blood and life energy being spilled that matters, not how intelligent it was. on the other hand certain spells(mainly the immortality ones) require specificly a human sacrifice and im sure alot of demons demand humans only.

my quick fix for defensive blast was that it now does subdual damage instead of fire.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I suppose if you cast it in advance, the Greater Warding would also do the trick.
I don't really want to buy Scrolls of Skelos, to be honest. I think the Sorcery rules are quite complex enough. And I want to keep magic rather limited in my campaign. Again, I think it's dangerous enough as it is.

spells like it are a reason why i always take iron will no matter what character im playing.

I've always done that, too, also in D&D or when I played NWN online. It happened more than once that all those kick-ass Weapon Masters with a damage output beyond good and evil simply ran or cowered in fear or started attacking their teammates, while my seemingly mediocre Ranger was the only one able to engage.
Come to think of it, basically I make a good magic resistance a priority in any RPG.

 

[blackenedwings]

On the issue of Defensive blast mentioned above, which has of course been discussed to death on the forum I figured I would list my own house rule.

More so than any other of the classes I think the Scholar requires an individual touch. I ruled that every sorcerer has their own unique defensive spell. It deals the same damage as the base listed for defensive blast, with the same save, but the exact form the spell takes and how it affects others is completely up to the DM/player. A character who specializes in telekinesis might rupture organs or break bones with a blast similar to the Burst Barrier spell, while a character with powers of Hypnotism might crush your mind. Hit points are incredibly abstract, so I don't have a problem with a hypnotist's defensive blast dealing hit point damage indicating massive hemorrhaging in the target's brain. A desert shaman might have a swirling wall of sand strip the flesh from the bones of his foes, while a necromancer might shrivel their flesh. There aren't really any limits beyond your imagination and it doesn't take very much time either, plus for a sorcerer player it gives them a cool thematic option.

I have also given some very vague and undefined sort of powers to sorcerers in my campaign such as the ability to feel and react to magical power being used around them, as well as environmental reactions to using "that which should not be". Mighty spells in my campaign cause noticeable (but explainable) physical effects in the world around the sorcerer. A storm might whip up around the sorcerer, or animals might all begin braying, or fires might be snuffed out. The average person would simply write these events off as coincidence, but I see it as nature and less sophisticated creatures reacting to powers beyond human ken.

 

[Spectator]

Rufia is a Kothian female sorceror (13th level), 29 years old, think 'hot' like Nicole Kidman, whom I have located in the Kushite Kingdom. She resides in the capitol of Shumballah/ El Shebbah.

She is the classic 'power behind the throne' and likes it that way, she has accumulated enough magical power for herself and now wishes to use it for power's sake. Sorcery was only a means to an end, she was fortunate enough to be trained in sorcerous methods which allowed her to become all knowing and all-influential. She has no desire to traffic with demons, the undead, or elementals; she knows that path is a sure end to insanity. It is much easier and rather effective to seduce a general, put him under her spell and have his army of Kushite cavalry burn, raid, and terrorize her opponents than having to go into dank Stygian tombs and learn ancient scripts surrounded by all sorts of undead and giant snakes. Eventually though, she is so powerhungry and vain she will have to learn the Necromantic and Immortality schools of magic to keep her alive and have her not pass into memory; but those tasks are far down the road.

She is rather power hungry and has her fingers involved in many aspects of the factional infighting all for her personal and professional gain. Shumballah is the trade nexus of all the various riches of the Black Kingdoms, whether it is Black Lotus, gold, slaves, leaving the the jungle and heading to Stygia or incoming grain, salt, or white slaves so eagerly sought by the tribal chieftans.

Rufia through her divinations and spies, knows much of what happens and through her hypnotic talents (Especially through the 'Enslave' spell, Scrolls of Skelos. It is quite possibly the best spell for a female sorceror to invest in.) has bent many ears to her red lips to influence events in the region.


Kothian red-headed scholar babe:

RUFIA
Medium Humanoid (Kothian Scholar 13)
Hit points: 59
Initiative: +6 (+2 Dex, +4 Ref)
Speed: 30 ft.
Dodge Defence: 16 (+4 level, +2 Dex)
Parry Defence: 14 (+4 level, +0 Str)
BAB: +9/4
Melee: +9
Ranged: +11
Attack: Akbitanan Knife +9 melee (+1 Akbitana quality)
Full Attack: Knife +9/+4 melee (+1 Akbitana quality)
Damage: Knife 1d4/ x2/ AP 2 or Sling
Space/Reach: 5 ft (1)/5 ft (1)
Special Attacks: Sorcery styles
Special Qualities: Hyborian traits (+2 on Knowledge Arcana and +2 on Sleight-of-Hand; 4 background skills: Ride, Swim, Spot, Open Lock), scholar, independent background, base power points, knowledge is power, +8 power points (3 from normal advances and +5 points from conquering two 'obsessions'), advanced spell x20 (+14 from levels advanced, and +3 from Sorcerors Boon feat and Greater Sorcerors Boon feat, and +3 from Intelligence Bonus), increased maximum power points x4
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +15
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 22
Skills: (164 points to be distributed) sorry guys my fingers are cramping
Feats: Iron Will, Chosen Feats (+5 from normal advance and +3 from preferred class = +8 feats) Magical Power Attack, Meditation, Greater Meditation, Sorceror's Boon, Greater Sorceror's Boon, Adept- hypnotist, Adept- Prestidigitation, Eyes of the Cat
Code of Honour: None
Reputation: 20 (Talented)
Leadership: –
Allegiances: -
Base Power Points: 15 (4 base, +3 Wis, +3 bonus, +5 Obsessions); 60 maximum)
Magical Attack: +12 (+6 level, +6 Cha)
Sorcery Styles: Counterspells, Divination, Hypnotism, Prestidigitation, Oriental Magic
Spells Known: Warding, Greater Warding, Amalric's Incantation; Astrological prediction, Dream of Wisdom, Mind Reading, Psychometry, Sorcerous News, Visions, ; Entrance, Domination, Torment, Illusion, Enslave, Dread Serpent, Hypnotic Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, Ranged Hypnotic Suggestion Savage Beast; Conjuring, Telekinesis, Burst Barrier, Greater Telekinesis; Calm of the Adept, Shapeshifter,
Corruption: 0
Insanity: None
Possessions: Akbitanan Knife (jeweled, 600 s.p.), Silk Bikini (The thong can be used as a Sling if ranged attacks are needed with a 30 ft. range increment), Sandals, Jewels and Bling-Bling, Sorceror's staff (4 ft, ebony-wood and inlaid with gold and silver patterns, 500 s.p.)
Ring of Yah-Chieng (Magical: Excess power points dissipate at 1 point per 4 hours, if user can 'Meditate' then +3 power points /per hour regained)

As you can tell, this is the ultimate 'bitch' if you make her mad, you die. If you stand in her way, you die. Power is what she craves and she is intent on getting it. Wealth is only secondary, since wealth only can buy so much. She has no desire to be a figurehead ruler, since they come and go, but there will always be a need for the puppets to have a puppeteer.

She has been able to 'Enslave' (per Spell) many Stygian sorcerors, nobles and generals and can have numerous contacts and benefactors in Khemi, Luxor, Suhkmet, and Kheshatta. These are not friends, rather minions. Through her 'enslave'-ment of various sorcerors, she is able to acquire items of magical power much more easily than most

 

[Clovenhoof]

I have posted a 14-level Sorcerer build here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27944
=)

 

[Valgrim Bragisson]

I have a question about spell prerequs. Do Magic Attack Bonus minimums refer to base bonus or total bonus(base+CHA)?
MP

 

[Clovenhoof]

The bonus as per your class progression, without CHA.
It's equivalent to the BAB prereqs of certain feats.