Some of the new ships/fleets

[Da Boss]

as a fellow Centauri it pains me to do so but I must say i don't agree re the G'Quan :

It does not have huge amounts of damage - compare it with the Naturally and rightly superior Primus - there are only 3 pts of damage and 5 pts of Crew difference. I would add 2 AD to the beam but thats prob about it.

Demos is OK with -2 AD - interceptors are in the show.

G'Vrahn is very good - is it too good not sure - However I would still like to have an War level alternative to the Octurion - a nice War level Carrier would be fun

 

[emperorpenguin]

we played around with a raid version of the vorchan, making its damage track about that of a hyperion and yes with ion torps on top of current weapons.

you and me maybe Steve but Mongoose never had it as raid during playtesting, always skirmish

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

*edited*

 

[emperorpenguin]

I don't remember seeing a vorchan using interceptors in the show; but having said that . . . . I'm not complaining that the Demos has them!

I think the centauri have been dicked over personally, and thats not because they are my fav fleet either,

We see Vorchans/Demos shooting down Drazi missiles in season 5, hence interceptors

I really cannot agree that the Centauri have been "dicked over", they remain an astoundingly powerful fleet.

Perhaps if you explained reasons rather than making sweeping statements?

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

I think this is a good time to mention something about White Stars. We have a 6 point Raid.

ISA: 4 White Star 1, 1 Gunship
EA: 2 Apollo, 2 Hyperion

I won because of two things. The ISA player's dice betrayed him. Completely. They did not hide anything about their mutiny. The second thing is, that by Turn 3, I left him with two ships I did not crit the weapons off of.

He thoroughly ravaged my Apollos, and got one hit off a Hyperion that nearly killed it. All the ISA ships were destroyed, especially a fleeing White Star that didn't get out of range of the Hyperions because the first hit Crippled it through the best beam attack in the entire game.

The other player I play is Psi Corps (between the two, I bet you can guess how often I get to use Interceptors...). His fleet consists of Hunters, Motherships, either a Warlock, a Marathon, or an Apollo, and sometimes his Nemesis. In every single game, the Psi Corps is only challenged when there are two fleets coming after him. Even the one time he was down to one ship, he held off for 4 rounds because no one could do any damage to him, once they broke stealth.

It's like playing the Minbari with fighters that simply will not lose in dogfights.

Dark Angel

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't think the Centauri have been shafted at all, I love the pulse weapons focus and changed range brackets. This is, by and large, what I wanted the Centauri to look like in first ed, and argued for before second ed came out. There are a few things I wouldn't have done the way they have been done, but by and large I'm happy with my fleet - and those of you who know me a little will know that's not something I say often... :wink:

 

[Rorschach]

B5Freak and I have been discussing kind of a Scissor-paper-rock effect.
-- Centauri smack EA and League around
-- Narn smack Centauri around
-- League smacks Narn around

We haven't done any conclusive games, but right now, we're setting up some matches to see the Centauri wolf-pack versus various other Fleet compositions.

The Narn seem ideal as the Centauri nemesis, as they take advantage of the Centauri short range. But we've also see that SO much of the game depends on whether hyperspace deployment is part of the scenario or not.

We've theorized these two test fleets, at 5 Battle:
For the Centauri “Wolfpack” Fleet, I’d recommend:

2 Kutai + 3 Vorchan = 1
2 Kutai + 3 Demos = 1
3 Maximus + 1 Corvan = 1
1 Centurion + 2 Morgrath = 1
1 Secundus = 1

The Narn Nemesis Fleet :

4x Ka’Tan = 1
2x Sho’Kar + 2x Thentus = 1
2x Dag’Kar = 1
2x Var’Nic = 1
G’Quan or G’lan = 1

That’s only 13 ships, but provides 20-26 Dice of AP, Triple Dam E-mines on Turn One.
12 Dice of Precise Super AP Torps each turn
2 Scouts
And 28-30 Dice of DD Beam, most at 20” Range, each Turn.

The E-mines and Torps have 30” Range. So start deployment so that E-mines hit everyone, and 20” beams hit the Vorchan line on Turn 1. Keep the Torps on the Secundus for Crits, maximized by Scout rerolls. Close in, ensure regular AD get rerolls from scouts. Flank with Var’Nic, keep Dag’Kar on All Stop at 30” out. G’Quan in Middle or lead, while Thentus and Ka’Tan match the enemy Skirmish maneuvers, countering with beams at every move.

Meanwhile, the Centauri just have to go with All Power To Engines, or Close Doors a lot and pray. Or use a Jump point ambush.
I'm also thinking a wide refused flank will work, if the Narn are forced to set up first.

Lastly...
Just a wacky match-up to try at home kids: Drakh versus Gaim
-- The Gaim can barely scratch the Drakh because of the GEG
-- The Drakh can take a heavy toll with their beams.
-- But the second the Drakh drift into Breach Pod or boarding range (if slowed) they're DONE.
It makes for a very funky chess match!

Did I mention I love the new game? Orks shmorks...I could play this forever!

 

[Jetbaker]

I can only comment on the fleets I have played from one version to the next. I see Abbai and I dont understand what happened to the Bimith. It used to be a ship of the line and now it just doesnt have that feel. The Abbai while strong at the start in defense just dont have enough firepower to take advantage of that. Also, the Shyarie comm jammer gun being able to be intercepted just doesnt feel right to me, nor does that same gun being able to shoot down fighters as well.

My next gripe would be the Narn. The triple damage is great but it feels that the inovators of the emine have been surpassed by the Brakiri and Gaim.

The shadows are probably my biggest complaint. This race that evolves from conflict has no AF so cant deal with any fighters whatsoever. The tendrils at least could be worked to give most ships at least and AF of 1, as they entwine and crush a fighter. People will disagree, but I hate the battle level ship. For a battle to have raid damage and pinning just makes it ineffective. I also dont think it has the proper amount of attack dice. I think 4-5 AD would be a better use. That same ship also loses the raid variant defense of stealth, which I am unsure of as to why. The Shadow Fighter is junk and should only be used as interceptors if possible. It amazes me that shadows get 2 flights per point and the vorlon fighters get 3. Someone overlooked something there. Finally, It is my opinion that the Shadows got the worst negatives overall, which includes campaign and pickup games. Being able to be pinned and telepathic disruption just leave something to be desired for me. Yes, it is in the show but if one can achieve either of those game over for the most part, and that sucks.


On a side note, why is it that the dark side if you will (Drakh and Shadows) both dont get AF. Fighters in general are better and do quite a bit in the long run of a game to a fleet that can do nothing about them. I hate being crit fished to death with waves of fighters. It makes the game little to no fun.

So far as the Gaim, one word BROKEN fleet.
So far as the Centauri think they are tough but not invincible like I originally thought.

I also hate how swarm fleets are king now. Makes taking higher priority ships of no value. I would like to see something that makes those ships more survivable.

That is all I can think of for now, not whining about these things just making my opinion know and see what others have to say.

 

[SylvrDragon]

Oh stop complaining, I got SUPER lucky with the first hunter, getting like 10 hits with a 5AD beam, thats luck, okay getting like 5 crits with those hits, thats amazing luck too, i think in the long run the hunter will prove to be a little strong, but not nearly as bad as yall are saying.

Real easy to say when it wasn't your WAR level vessel that lost roughly 75% of its hit points to a single shot from a battle level vessel.

To Jet: I'll agree about the swarm fleets. I used to play Crusade EA, but with many of the recent changes they've become fairly easy to overrun.

I can't say I agree about the Gaim entirely though. What makes them so broken? Most people complain about their e-mines, but we're talking about a low AD weapon that isn't even capable of delivering critical hits. Sure they're suicide fighters are fairly nasty, but these are easily countered with either the AF trait or other fighters; and I realize the Shadows don't have AF and their fighters suck, but the suicide fighters are barely able to break shields; you can get a MAX of 9 flights onto a single Shadow Ship and with super AP that's statistically about 4 hits, which takes out the shields and that's it and after that all they've got is e-mines which usually amount to barely enough damage to over come self repair and they don't even always overcome that! I've seen little reason to truly fear the Gaim.

 

[Ripple]

Depends on what you play as far as the Gaim go.

If your a race that depends on ships raid and below many gaim fleets can destroy a ship or three a turn with the fleet wide blast of e-mines. The first thread on the gaim had the same argument that the average damage per ship was no big deal, and even a fleet was only killing skirmish hulls reliably. The problem with that is unlike most fleets maneuver is useless as a defense due to the ranges and arc of the e-mines.

Fighters are useless against the Gaim for the same reason they were always useless against the narn of old. A few emine drops and there are no enemy fighters. Against the long range and T arc means there is no hiding place except about ship, adding to the impression that any carrier that can't launch all its fighters in one go is a 'bad carrier'.

Against shadows, the gaim don't suicide, they fly behind and pepper you to death. Statistically it might not see to work out, but crits are the reason it does work. Your rolling looking for the yahtzee turn... because the shadows can't get one and you can. In a game with a turn limit the shadows will likely win, but unlimited game and sooner or later the gaim win (or fighter player wins).

I agree with Jet that the swarm issue takes some of the fun out of things. I'd like to play bigger games with bigger ships, but right now I just run into swarms of smaller ones.

Abbai got screwed, bad vision (fixed defense is not viable in a game with roll up beams) and worse execution (bimith got wrecked). Admittedly, they are a finesse fleet to start with, you have to have some timing and be able to coordinate all the elements moving together to be at the right place when needed, ISA can be similar, but... there was no reason to do a general reduction in AD across the fleet, there was no reason to leave the Kotha out of the general upgrade of fighters, there was no reason strip all the interceptors off given they traded damage points for shield points.

(yes the Kotha got a bonus AD, but it made the ship STILL the worst at the one roll that would help with, ship attack, when the supposed purpose of the fighter is to defend the fleet from OTHER FIGHTERS. For it to do its job it needed more survivability vs ships guns not more offense vs ships, and some ability to affect other fighters. Drop weak and it becomes an interceptor, give it shields 1/1 and af 1 and its a mobile defense drone vs fighters that's not immeadeately shot off, give hull six and it maybe helps survive a bit more against ships, but still fighter bait, which is what it's supposed to help against.)

ripple

 

[Da Boss]

Oh stop complaining, I got SUPER lucky with the first hunter, getting like 10 hits with a 5AD beam, thats luck, okay getting like 5 crits with those hits, thats amazing luck too, i think in the long run the hunter will prove to be a little strong, but not nearly as bad as yall are saying.

Real easy to say when it wasn't your WAR level vessel that lost roughly 75% of its hit points to a single shot from a battle level vessel.

To Jet: I'll agree about the swarm fleets. I used to play Crusade EA, but with many of the recent changes they've become fairly easy to overrun.

I can't say I agree about the Gaim entirely though. What makes them so broken? Most people complain about their e-mines, but we're talking about a low AD weapon that isn't even capable of delivering critical hits. Sure they're suicide fighters are fairly nasty, but these are easily countered with either the AF trait or other fighters; and I realize the Shadows don't have AF and their fighters suck, but the suicide fighters are barely able to break shields; you can get a MAX of 9 flights onto a single Shadow Ship and with super AP that's statistically about 4 hits, which takes out the shields and that's it and after that all they've got is e-mines which usually amount to barely enough damage to over come self repair and they don't even always overcome that! I've seen little reason to truly fear the Gaim.

Gaim - yes they have - in appearance - low AD weapons - but also recall - they are turreted, have huge range and can always be fired as Squadrons against enemies and most importantly ignore the major defence systems of a number of races - ie Stealth, Dodge, interceptors and are also able to hit more than one ship with that AD. How exactly do you conter their fighters when the emines wipe yours out and not all ships have AF - or enough to matter if Gaim breeching pods get through. Have you pklayed against them with anything ? Try playing aginst them with hull 5 ships - crits don't matter as your ships simply crumble against the emines. The sceanrio can make a huge difference if the opponents can close to try and kill the ships - which given that the majority of them have good dam/crew and hull 6 and interceptors - is not easy! Thats if you can get through the swarm of fighters and breeching pods.
They may or may not be broken but they are certainly formidable..........

 

[Tolwyn]

I agree that the G'Vran is a bit over the top, too.

We just compared it to the Bin'Tak at our gaming club and we see no reason to use the Bin'Tak as the G'Vran is superior to it in every way.

 

[Jetbaker]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that Close All Blast Doors slows the game down. I would prefer it to be a roll of 6 only. Being able to negate on average 33% of hits and crew is silly.

The beam mechanic is one for me where I roll lights out or better luck next game. They are to all or nothing for my taste.

The crit table seems to prefer less advance races with low traits. Nothing worse than playing Vorlons and lose AA or the equivalent thereof for other advance races. Not to mention one arc fleets and losing that arc.

 

[greenboy]

i miss the range on the large centari ships would have been nice to have some torps on the octurion to give it some thing to do for the 2 turns it is closing

 

[katadder]

lol i find it amusing so many people are anti-gaim.
for starters their ships are not going to do much to you as they cannot crit and at most have 12AD on a ship (apart from assault ship really) so have to kill every last bit of your damage to kill you. also multiple weapons means not gonna be on CBD (and if you are on CBD you can stop 1/3 of those single damage non critting e-mines). even minor crits ffect them hugely due to a -1AD crit halving the firepower on most the ships with e-mines, or losing an arc takes all their weapons.
ok the fighters issue, its like fighting missile boats that you can use your own weapons to stop the missiles, plus your own fighters and your AF grid. to use your own fighters do not launch until your fighters can intercept Gaim ones that turn (as you launch in end phase this is easy to decide), its what me and the other gaim player did last tourney and fighters actually spent alot of time dogfighting in that game.
also dont be scared to use main weapons and secondaries on fighters or especially the breaching pods. if you dont get within 8" of a pod it cant get you, and you either stalemate it or if you have longer range secondaries (EA, centauyri, brakiri) then you can probably pop them at range.

the Gaim have new fleet syndrome and people havent played them enough IMO. admittedly the minbari/ISA have probs with them but everyone else has ways and means to deal and afterall who doesnt have problems with minbari, especially if they dont bring a scout.

 

[Triggy]

lol i find it amusing so many people are anti-gaim.
for starters their ships are not going to do much to you as they cannot crit and at most have 12AD on a ship (apart from assault ship really) so have to kill every last bit of your damage to kill you. also multiple weapons means not gonna be on CBD (and if you are on CBD you can stop 1/3 of those single damage non critting e-mines). even minor crits ffect them hugely due to a -1AD crit halving the firepower on most the ships with e-mines, or losing an arc takes all their weapons.
ok the fighters issue, its like fighting missile boats that you can use your own weapons to stop the missiles, plus your own fighters and your AF grid. to use your own fighters do not launch until your fighters can intercept Gaim ones that turn (as you launch in end phase this is easy to decide), its what me and the other gaim player did last tourney and fighters actually spent alot of time dogfighting in that game.
also dont be scared to use main weapons and secondaries on fighters or especially the breaching pods. if you dont get within 8" of a pod it cant get you, and you either stalemate it or if you have longer range secondaries (EA, centauyri, brakiri) then you can probably pop them at range.

the Gaim have new fleet syndrome and people havent played them enough IMO. admittedly the minbari/ISA have probs with them but everyone else has ways and means to deal and afterall who doesnt have problems with minbari, especially if they dont bring a scout.

Steve, you were one of the original people claiming that it was virtually impossible for any fleet to beat the Gaim (remember saying that my EA had near-zero chance of beating your Gaim?)

The Gaim aren't all bad, but the Stuteeka and Shuuka are overpowered and probably the Skrunnka too. The rest are pretty much fine. The trouble is that this means people take fleets with only Stuteekas and Shuukas (and occasionally Skrunnkas) :roll:

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Perhaps if you explained reasons rather than making sweeping statements?

I've re-written this a couple of times, as my anger has slowly subsided, but I'll just ask if there is any reason why you had to make it personal.

This thread was opened as a little place to have another rant, people when they are frustrated like to do that, so anyone reading or posting on here should know what to expect. Am I not now entitled to an opinion? If people such as yourself don't like it, then don't read it, and if it represents such a problem then ask me via a PM to edit the post. I'll gladly do so.

 

[katadder]

lol i find it amusing so many people are anti-gaim.
for starters their ships are not going to do much to you as they cannot crit and at most have 12AD on a ship (apart from assault ship really) so have to kill every last bit of your damage to kill you. also multiple weapons means not gonna be on CBD (and if you are on CBD you can stop 1/3 of those single damage non critting e-mines). even minor crits ffect them hugely due to a -1AD crit halving the firepower on most the ships with e-mines, or losing an arc takes all their weapons.
ok the fighters issue, its like fighting missile boats that you can use your own weapons to stop the missiles, plus your own fighters and your AF grid. to use your own fighters do not launch until your fighters can intercept Gaim ones that turn (as you launch in end phase this is easy to decide), its what me and the other gaim player did last tourney and fighters actually spent alot of time dogfighting in that game.
also dont be scared to use main weapons and secondaries on fighters or especially the breaching pods. if you dont get within 8" of a pod it cant get you, and you either stalemate it or if you have longer range secondaries (EA, centauyri, brakiri) then you can probably pop them at range.

the Gaim have new fleet syndrome and people havent played them enough IMO. admittedly the minbari/ISA have probs with them but everyone else has ways and means to deal and afterall who doesnt have problems with minbari, especially if they dont bring a scout.

Steve, you were one of the original people claiming that it was virtually impossible for any fleet to beat the Gaim (remember saying that my EA had near-zero chance of beating your Gaim?)

The Gaim aren't all bad, but the Stuteeka and Shuuka are overpowered and probably the Skrunnka too. The rest are pretty much fine. The trouble is that this means people take fleets with only Stuteekas and Shuukas (and occasionally Skrunnkas) :roll:

at that tourney yes, because people didnt know how to there really. and i dont think that you had played enough with them to realise how it works either. plus it was the fleet you have i dont think would have beaten them. at the time I dont think i could have beaten them either, but I have had chance to think about it. the minbari/ISA still cant but then thats the whole rock/paper/scissors of ACTA anyway.
you cannot approach the Gaim like any other fleet, and thats where peoples problems lie, they dont like to change how they use their fleet, but the Gaim require a whole new way of thinking. I bet if you sat down and really thought about it now triggy you could beat them.

like i said they have major weaknesses, limited primary weapons, secondaries that dont crit, one arc on most ships and low AD.

the only gaim ship i do think needs looking at is the shuuka, as theres no reason to take shakaks over it (although i did). this ship needs to lose one weapon, 2 breaching pods and probably one fighter.

 

[Davesaint]

Unbelievable. I just don't understand how anyone can think that the Gaim are balanced. It isn't just a rock-paper-scissors issue with them Katadder. So the e-mines cant crit, BFD. Their fighters sure can. Please explain to me how you are going to shoot all of them down. We still have not received an answer to how many suicide fighters can attack a ship on a given turn. When they ram, the are precise too! You aren't going to get a shot at dogfighting against them, as my e-mines will kill your fighter before they can engage. The only fleet I have seen that might have a chance is the Drakh, and I am still not convinced on that.


Dave

 

[Sock]

Unbelievable. I just don't understand how anyone can think that the Gaim are balanced. It isn't just a rock-paper-scissors issue with them Katadder. So the e-mines cant crit, BFD. Their fighters sure can. Please explain to me how you are going to shoot all of them down. We still have not received an answer to how many suicide fighters can attack a ship on a given turn. When they ram, the are precise too! You aren't going to get a shot at dogfighting against them, as my e-mines will kill your fighter before they can engage. The only fleet I have seen that might have a chance is the Drakh, and I am still not convinced on that.


Dave

against drakh all the gaim player need to is load up on breaching pods and the drakh are screwed, this is a drakh player speaking from experience