Soldier going multi-class (thief)

[Vermillion]

Hi, I'm playing a 3rd level soldier in a game of conan RPG, and have had a lot of fun up to now. We got a level-up, and I decided that perhaps I should multi-class since that is promoted in the conan RPG.

The thing is, one of the real gimps of my soldier class have been the low skill points (have an int mod of +1), so that means I have a total of 18 skill points now at level 3. What I'm getting to is that this is one of the main reasons why I decided multi-classing to be a good idea.

Well, I came out disapointed : after 3 levels of soldiers, compared to the other guys in the party, I had built a real disadvantage in skills, and all I got was a lousy T-shirt (no actually, a couple of feats).

What I'm getting at is that if you multiclass a third level fighter into a thief, so, if you add 1 level of thief.. the 8+int mod skill points are just a little short to start putting skill points in all those various thief skills.

So the conclusion is, multi classing a soldier is not good, because the "soldier skill gimp" will gimp your next class as well. Added to that the other thing that makes multiclassing soldiers troublesome, the fact that the soldier is the only class that has a better parry-based defense, all the others have better dodge-based defense (posted elsewhere before).

I wouldn't be complaining like this if it weren't so interesting for all other classes to multiclass..

 

[Sutek]

Well, with the first level of thief you get Sneak Attack. Combined with all your other soldier feats, that ought to be pretty nasty...

No?

 

[Vermillion]

Sneak attack requires me being able to sneak in the first place.. Which means a truckload of skill points in move silently and hide, which in turn means no skill points in all the other thief skills (disable device, search, spot, listen, open locks, what have you..). And those truckload of points in stealth mean nothing if I'm wearing medium armor.

So it's not that nasty after all.

 

[René]

Sneak attack requires me being able to sneak in the first place.. Which means a truckload of skill points in move silently and hide, which in turn means no skill points in all the other thief skills (disable device, search, spot, listen, open locks, what have you..). And those truckload of points in stealth mean nothing if I'm wearing medium armor.

So it's not that nasty after all.

How about atking the feat "Improved Feint"? Just needs high Bluff skill.

 

[Vermillion]

How about atking the feat "Improved Feint"? Just needs high Bluff skill.

I don't see how improved feint would help? I don't get a feat at 4th level anyway, so it's not an option. Moreover, the prereq's of this feat are monstrous for my level, I guess you meant another feat instead?

Back to the original subject. My problem is with the fact that my thief level I took, on top of the 3 levels of warrior is pretty gimped due to the fact that the soldier had sub-sub-sub-par skill points compared to any other class. (Some people say the sub-par skill points are because of the 'extra' feats, but compared to other classes the soldier doesn't really have more feats, just more freedom of choice.)

 

[René]

How about atking the feat "Improved Feint"? Just needs high Bluff skill.

I don't see how improved feint would help? I don't get a feat at 4th level anyway, so it's not an option. Moreover, the prereq's of this feat are monstrous for my level, I guess you meant another feat instead?

Maybe you have the 1st ed. In AE the prereq is: Int 13+ and Combat Expertise. Two things a Soldier 3 could have without any problem.

If you read the Feint chapter you'll see why Improved Feint works well with Thief abilities.

One of my players (Nemedian Soldier) took during his adventuring life Combat Expertise, Improved Feint and 3 levels of Thief - it works wonderful for him. Surely it's nothing you get with one level advancement.

 

[Vermillion]

Maybe you have the 1st ed. In AE the prereq is: Int 13+ and Combat Expertise. Two things a Soldier 3 could have without any problem.

Yes it seems I looked at another version of that feat. Well, the prereqs are better, but, my int is too low (we don't believe in super chars), and hence, I haven't got combat expertise either. So it still doesn't address my issues. Thanks for the feedback though, I'll keep that improved feint feat in mind on my next level up in a couple of months (slow levelling).

 

[Korppis]

Yes it seems I looked at another version of that feat. Well, the prereqs are better, but, my int is too low (we don't believe in super chars), and hence, I haven't got combat expertise either. So it still doesn't address my issues. Thanks for the feedback though, I'll keep that improved feint feat in mind on my next level up in a couple of months (slow levelling).

Yoi said that you have an Int bonus +1, so you must have Int at least 12. At level 4 you will get extra ability point, and i suggest that you use it to boost your int to 13. Iirc, there were many other combat oriented feats which have int 13 as a prec.

Also, i you should choose just couple of Thieving skills as your "primary skills", and i would suggest that you should choose Hide, Move Silently and Bluff. Those are good to have with sneak attack... Dont think your multiclassed soldier as a "Jack of all trades", but more as a Soldier who has managed to learn couple of a sneaky trics... and because your character is still mostly soldier, those trick should be those which will help you in combat. It is best to let ohter party members take care of those locks and traps and arcane stuff...

 

[Greymane]

Try not to think of it as being "gimped" ... every choice has consequences and some sacrifices in order to work ... think of it as your soldier getting into the theif groove... it takes some time before he's good at it...

 

[samsonov]

Hi,

I'm playing with soldier/thief (4/2) character, and I'm allocating my thief skillpoints mainly in bluff, it's very useful skill and helped me and our party many times. I think that what Korppis said about choosing couple of so called primary skills is good, 'cos otherwise you'll end up being Jack of All Trades and Master of None. Other skills what I train from thief is Diplomacy and Sense Motive. I'll let our party's thief to handle stabbing, opening locks and so on, I'll just concentrate to those skills. Though I use bluff to get quite useful fighting feats also. So this is my verion of this character type. I have a lot of great time with playing my Zingaran fellow...

 

[Sutek]

Sneak attack requires me being able to sneak in the first place.. Which means a truckload of skill points in move silently and hide, which in turn means no skill points in all the other thief skills (disable device, search, spot, listen, open locks, what have you..). And those truckload of points in stealth mean nothing if I'm wearing medium armor.

So it's not that nasty after all.

No it doesn't. Depriving opponent's of Parry/Dodge can happen is several ways, and you can even sneak attack while flanking. Just use cross class points to move silently instead of ride or simply put as many new ranks into it as soon as you gain your thief level.

Personally though, I'd wait until Soldier4/Thief1 at fifth level. That's a dead zone for soldier where you get no class features.

 

[Trodax]

My problem is with the fact that my thief level I took, on top of the 3 levels of warrior is pretty gimped due to the fact that the soldier had sub-sub-sub-par skill points compared to any other class.

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. If you think that the 2+Int skill points the Soldier gets is to low, then thats a problem with the Soldier class in itself. But it sounds like you're saying that its the multiclassing with Soldier thats especially gimped, and I don't really get that. Of course you won't have as many skills as a pure Thief, and as others have pointed out here, you won't be able to get all of the Thief skills. You'll have a hell of a lot more skill points than a straight Soldier, though.

The one thing that I can agree is a little "gimped" when multiclassing Soldiers is that, if you have multiclassing plans, its a bit of a disadvantage to start out as a Soldier. A multiclass Soldier/Thief will be a lot better off starting out with Thief at first level, because you gain a ton of skill points (24 in fact) from doing so (and all you loose is 2 hit points).

Sneak attack requires me being able to sneak in the first place.

You don't have to be a sneaky bastard at all to make use of sneak attack. Note that you can always sneak attack opponents who you catch flat-footed at the start of combat or opponents who you are flanking.

All you need is to either be very fast (Improved Initiative perhaps?), or have a lot of friends who can help you get into flanking positions.

As a Soldier, you're probably already dishing out quite high-damage attacks. That extra d6 from sneak attack can easily be the little extra you need to reach 20 points of damage, and inflict massive damage. I think sneak attack is great for Soldiers!

 

[MightyCthulhu]

Sneak attack requires me being able to sneak in the first place..

Not really, you just need to catch them flat footed or flank them. This can be accomplished via high initiative or, more commonly, by maneuvering around your opponent. If there is another Thief in the party who has a decent tumble skill, you two can set up flanking attacks on an enemy and proceed to slash him to ribbons as you BOTH gain sneak attacks on him! If I were you, I'd consider putting some ranks into tumble.

From you original post It's not very clear "what" you want to do with you extra skill points. Do you think it will be useful enough to suffer a lesser base attack and smaller hit dice?

 

[argo]

Sneak attack requires me being able to sneak in the first place.. Which means a truckload of skill points in move silently and hide, which in turn means no skill points in all the other thief skills (disable device, search, spot, listen, open locks, what have you..). And those truckload of points in stealth mean nothing if I'm wearing medium armor.

So it's not that nasty after all.

Flanking. Just think of your sneak attack as a nice damage bonus you can get when flanking. Also flat-footed, but you probably won't be winning initative much with the Soldier's poor Reflex save.

If you are the type that uses armor a lot (and what soldier isn't?) then I'd advise against hide/move silent. Also, if you intend to come back to Soldier I'd advise against putting points in skills that overlap with Soldier such as climb and jump. If you already have a "dungeon delver" thief in your party then avoid search/disable device/open lock as well, you wont' be able to compete and it doesn't take more than one to do those jobs anyway.

Absoluetly put 5 ranks in Bluff. Besides being a good investment in and of itself you also get great synergy bonuses. For 5 ranks in bluff you get a +2 synergy bonus to: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Slight of Hand and Disguise checks (but only when you know you are being observed). Yes, thats 8 points of bonuses for 5 ranks of investment, one of the best bargains in the game and frequently overlooked by players. Other good skills for a soldier/thief who wears armor: Sense motive, Spot/Listen, Gather Information, Tumble (yes you take the armor check penalty, but 5 ranks gets you the bonus to fighting defensevly which is good if you never intend to pick up Expertise) and maybe a few of the knolwedge skills. But really, anything that improves your versatility is good.

Unless you intend to move away from your role as a front-line fighter then I'd suggest you dont' go for more than 2 or 3 levels of Thief.

Hope that helps.

 

[Vermillion]

Thanks for all the hints and the great advice.

Unfortunately a lot of the hints don't apply to my specific situation.. I'm in a rather small group where I'm the only melee oriented character. So basically flanking an opponent doesn't happen all that often, unless I actually let the enemy reach the archer or magic-user in the group, with which they won't be happy at all. Add to that that we're house ruling that attacks of opportunity don't come as often, and that moving around an opponent when you're the only one engaged in melee with that oppenent doesn't mean flanking, it means my sneak attack won't be coming any time soon in standard melee.

The five ranks in bluff, is something I hadn't considered, unfortunately, I'm Cimmerian, so currently I have -2 in bluff checks, so I'd have to put 7 ranks in there, right?

One very perceptive fellow noticed that I can go to int 13 this level, so in the next level up I will be able to take both Combat Expertise. For Improved Feint I'll still have to wait another level (character level 6 feat). Also like I mentioned before, at the slow pace we are levelling, it's not even sure if my character will ever reach that level in due time.

To conclude, I admit I wasn't being very clear on what my problem exactly was. I'll rephrase again:
Due to the fact that a soldier is down on skills, it means that the first level of a very skill dependent class he multiclasses into will be a very big sacrifice, compared to just continuing his soldier carreer. I agree, as you add levels this disadvantage fades, but if you level only once in 6 months real-time it's a long wait.

 

[René]

The five ranks in bluff, is something I hadn't considered, unfortunately, I'm Cimmerian, so currently I have -2 in bluff checks, so I'd have to put 7 ranks in there, right?

Read the Cimmerian entry again: "verbal-used Bluff checks"!

 

[MightyCthulhu]

... I'm in a rather small group where I'm the only melee oriented character....

I'd recommend NOT multiclassing into a non-fighting class if you are the only melee fighter in the party. Take a look at borderer if you really want to multiclass.

The group I run for is mostly Barbarians and Thieves although we do have a single borderer. No one opted for Soldier because they really need other soldiers to back them up to get the most of their perks.

 

[argo]

The five ranks in bluff, is something I hadn't considered, unfortunately, I'm Cimmerian, so currently I have -2 in bluff checks, so I'd have to put 7 ranks in there, right?

The -2 is a penalty is applied to your skill checks with that skill, it does not affect your actual number of ranks in the skill. So you still gain the synergy bonuses at five ranks. Also, as Rene pointed out the Cimerian penalty is on verbal bluff checks. IE no penalty on feints.

Combat Expertise is a good feat all around but I recomend against Improved Feint, you simply will not have enough sneak attack to make use of it as your main tactic. If you want to see your sneak attack come up more often Improved Initative is a much better investment.

I did not realize that you were the only melee combatant in a three-man party! That does not mean that thief is a bad class choice for you but it does mean that if you choose it your party is going to have to start being more sneaky/tricksy and start avoiding melee some more. Perhaps considering another class is a good idea.

Lets re-define the question. Instead of "what skills are good for a soldier/thief" lets start with you telling us what exactly you want out of your soldier multi-class, what role do you hope to fill/does the party need, what kind of tasks do you hope to do?

 

[Trodax]

...Tumble (yes you take the armor check penalty, but 5 ranks gets you the bonus to fighting defensevly which is good if you never intend to pick up Expertise)...

There is a restriction that says that the Tumble skill may not be used at all when your speed has been reduced (medium and heavy armour). I would personally rule that this restriction also extends so that you don't get the synergy bonus to fighting defensively when in medium/heavy armour.

Combat Expertise is a good feat all around but I recomend against Improved Feint, you simply will not have enough sneak attack to make use of it as your main tactic.

Good advice. Feinting will restrict you to one attack per round, and as you level up as a Soldier you will definitely want to go full-attack instead. For a pure Thief with loads of sneak attack, exchanging full-attack for one sneak attack is a great deal, but its just not worth it if you only have +1d6 or so.

Combat Expertise is still always a great feat, though.

 

[Sutek]

One attack? Is sneak attack a full round action in Conan? It's not listed as such in the explanation on pg 177 nor is it in the table on pg 155.

As far as I can tell, if a target is either denied Parry or Dodge, you can make a sneak attack - that's all that's required. If you have multiple attacks, you can make multiple sneak attacks.

EDIT

Oh...never mind. I see...you said "feint limits to one attack". My bad...

EDIT AGAIN

...except feint is only a standard action, so one blow can be feinted, but if ther eare other multiple attacks, they won't be lost as a simple attack is also a standard action. Right?