So...Vargr in the "Mongoose" Third Imperium...

[Cleon the Mad]

Hello!

Oh, first post here in this forum. Somehow felt the forum name was fitting. <drools, slobbers>

Okay, enough of that. Guess I had a question on how everyone is currently handling Vargr character generation in the "Mongoose" Third Imperium. I do know they give a short overview of them, with a little blurb at the end about "Okay, replace Social Standing with Charisma". Do understand how Charisma (the Vargr) trait works. Guess what I'm wondering if a Vargr who's an Imperial citizen would also have a social standing trait? I would assume so, since they do still interact with well, everyone else in the Imperium. Anyway, since there are at least a few million Vargr in the Imperium, I figured it would be worth it to have a ground rule until an actual Vargr handbook is published for MGT.

What I'm considering is calling Social Standing a "weak" trait with a -1 or maybe -2 to the roll, minimum of two. (Using the definition of weak trait for aliens from the Alien section of the core rules). This makes being a Vargr noble a lot harder and the average social standing lower then the humaniti majority in the Imperium, but it's still possible to roll a Vargr noble character class with a -1 or -2. Anyway, what would you do? No minus to the trait? A -1? A -2? There's such thing as Vargr nobles, Megatraveller introduced us to the Archduke of Antares as a Rebellion faction for instance, he was a Vargr. So...anyway, some thoughts on what house rule you'd use or if mine makes sense are welcome.

Or for that matter, if a developer already knows a basic rule, and wishes to share enough of a snippet to use as a rule until the Vargr book comes out, I'm all ears.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Within the Imperium, Vargr are accepted just like any other race. I wouldn't use a DM against SS at all. I would just add Charisma as another trait to be rolled.

SS would be used in interactions with Humans, Charisma would be used in dealings with other Vargr.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Within the Imperium, Vargr are accepted just like any other race. I wouldn't use a DM against SS at all. I would just add Charisma as another trait to be rolled.

SS would be used in interactions with Humans, Charisma would be used in dealings with other Vargr.

Yes, do understand how Charisma differs from Social Standing. Anyway thank you for your suggestion. I guess my thought is there could be some negative bias..but then again that is more of an individual thing possibly. Think I will go with just a straight roll.

 

[GamerDude]

Yes, do understand how Charisma differs from Social Standing. Anyway thank you for your suggestion. I guess my thought is there could be some negative bias..but then again that is more of an individual thing possibly. Think I will go with just a straight roll.

Social standing is, in some ways a perception of how society sees you, while charisma is personal appeal and sweet talking.

I can see the difference since in human society, one's position in it can bring influence (or a lack there of). Vargr don't have dukes and counts and admirals and such.

 

[Twi'lekk_Den-keeper]

Personally I think humans should have charisma as well. The idea that social status replaces charisma is nuts.

 

[Supergamera]

Personally I think humans should have charisma as well. The idea that social status replaces charisma is nuts.

I have thought of breaking Social Status into a skill rating, with Soc-0 corresponding to Knight rank, and moving up from there. This would allow for charismatic but lower-class humans, as well as nobles that are completely intolerable. It could also prevent the large numbers of noble PCs that appear in generation (most Social Status + entries would change to Charismas +, with a few chances for Soc rank advancement).

 

[cbrunish]

First off love the Vargr characters. But I really think that charisma and social standing are really not interchangable. The Vargr would still have social standing which is the person's importance or standing in society.

I also think that the Solomani should also have this trait. IMTU the Solomani party is non-existing but there is still social standing. Look at any democracy and tell me there isn't a social standing in effect? You can't. It's a fact of life.

But charisma is the person's dynamics and to the Vargr that is very important. I would make charisma an additional trait.

My opinion.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Social standing is, in some ways a perception of how society sees you, while charisma is personal appeal and sweet talking.

I can see the difference since in human society, one's position in it can bring influence (or a lack there of). Vargr don't have dukes and counts and admirals and such.

Remember, my original post was with regards to Vargr who are Imperial citizens, there are a fair amount. I want to say a book in a different Traveller line (Maybe GURPS, their first alien book, Zhodain & Vargr?) even state that Vargr are the largest minority race in the 3rd Imperium. Anyway, one of the Imperial faction leaders was Archduke Brzk, a Vargr...he did make Archduke of the Domain of Antares before the Rebellion/Strephon's assassination happened.

Anyway, if you mean Vargr in general, IMO there very well can be a Vargr "Admiral". Mind you, his fleet might be smaller then what an Imperial, Solomani or Zhodani Admiral might command, and he'd BETTER have a high Charisma stat..and even with that, the fleet won't stay together too long since he'll be seen as too distant by many of his ship commanders and they will either break off to join an "Admiral" whom they think has more charisma, decide to usurp the current Admiral's position and become "top dog" (pun intended. ) or just break off and operate independantly. Remember, Vargr have often joined Zhodani & Sword Worlders in the various Frontier Wars..it's not like they can't organize a fleet, it's just the larger the orginization trying to be held together by one leader, the harder it becomes and the more likely said leader is disposed by some other Vargr seeing himself as more capable, true or not.


Anyway, to be at least somewhat on topic (well, my intent for the topic), I will use no DM and add Soc back in for Vargr who are specfically Imperial citizens, like I posted before. At least until Mongoose does publish a Vargr handbook of some sort.

Okay, going through a few posts, want to reply to a few of them. Sorry for the length of this:

Personally I think humans should have charisma as well. The idea that social status replaces charisma is nuts.

Thing is, the Vargr trait isn't meant to be the same as how us humans (or even how most other species) see Charisma. Charisma is already replicated with skills in the game, such as leadership and persuade to mention two. Charisma in Vargr society is how they are perceived with regards to being "top dog" (note pun again. ) within their society. It just is a lot more volitale then social standing seen in most or all humaniti based societies.

In theory, ANY race interacting with Vargr can have a Vargr charisma stat IMO, at least if they try to actually fit in and/or lead some Vargr. Be interesting if the MGT Vargr handbook, if/when it's out (Do assume when) addresses that.

Last one, again sorry for the length:

First off love the Vargr characters. But I really think that charisma and social standing are really not interchangable. The Vargr would still have social standing which is the person's importance or standing in society.

I also think that the Solomani should also have this trait. IMTU the Solomani party is non-existing but there is still social standing. Look at any democracy and tell me there isn't a social standing in effect? You can't. It's a fact of life.

But charisma is the person's dynamics and to the Vargr that is very important. I would make charisma an additional trait.

My opinion.

*nods*, Nor was my intent to interchange them. It was to ask if a Vargr who is an Imperial Citizen would have a minus to their social standing or not, my conclusion currently is no. I'd assume Archduke Brzk of The Domain of Antares from MegaTraveller is at least a Subsector or Sector Duke if not already an Archduke in 1105, since MegaTraveller starts in 1116 with the Rebellion and he is an Archduke at the start of said rebellion.

As for Solomani having social standing, of course they would. Be honest, not even sure why you mentioned them. Anyway, I'd not dispute that at all. The Solomani Confederation may shy away from Imperial style Noble titles, but the Social Standing stat does exist for them. Then again, Zhodani Noble titles aren't the same as Imperial either, their "titles" basically are a different suffix added to their name. Not sure what the Sword Worlders do, but I'd give them Social Standing too...if they do something similar to the Imperium I could just see a title like "Jarl" being used by them though for instance.

Anyway, my intent wasn't to interchange them or to say "Okay, should an Imperial Vargr have ONLY Social Standing", it was to say "Okay, IMO an Imperial Vargr would have a Social Standing stat along WITH Charisma. Now..do you guys think the Vargr should have a minus to the trait, or should it be a straight 2D6 roll?". I went with straight 2d6.

 

[GothiousRex]

I see no reason why an Imperial Vargr couldn't become an Admiral in the Navy. He would command an Imperial fleet just like any other Imperial citizen would, his charisma may play into it if their were Vargr members in the fleet but otherwise they'd be held to their duty like any other officer in the Imperial Navy.

 

[Mithras]

Can't you just give Imperial Vargr Soc Standing, and non-Imperial Vargr Charisma? :?:

 

[cbrunish]

Can't you just give Imperial Vargr Soc Standing, and non-Imperial Vargr Charisma? :?:

I really think that they would have both. If a Imperial Vargr would be in Vargr space that charisma stat would become much more important. But social standing is still important. You can have an ultra high charisma but still be dirt poor. Look at the gangs in cities like LA and NY. I've read that they are a prime example of the "pack" mentality.

And I brought up the Solomani because I feel that party standing was stupid.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Can't you just give Imperial Vargr Soc Standing, and non-Imperial Vargr Charisma? :?:

I really think that they would have both. If a Imperial Vargr would be in Vargr space that charisma stat would become much more important. But social standing is still important. You can have an ultra high charisma but still be dirt poor. Look at the gangs in cities like LA and NY. I've read that they are a prime example of the "pack" mentality.

And I brought up the Solomani because I feel that party standing was stupid.

Commenting mostly on the "Solomani" part, already agreeing with the first paragraph by cbrunish.

Okay, I spaced the use of "party standing" for Solomani, forgive me for that.

I guess I'm more neutral on Party Standing, since that's more of a Solomani government trait, someone who isn't a citizen of the Solomani Confederation wouldn't have a Party Standing trait (or I suppose they would have Party Standing of Zero). But given their government, it does make some sense...they don't exactly honor the idea of nobles. The other races with a social standing trait are either Imperial citizens so thus have some standing in the Imperium even if their own race could care less about a concept like "social status", or have a nobility of their own, and thus have something that works the same as Imperial Social Status. (Very general comment I know, but how it seems to work IMO). The Solomani have something similar..but to them status within the Solomani Party of the Solomani Confederation is what makes someone "noteworthy" from a social status scale, so thus "Party Standing".

Really, in a way it's just Social Standing reworded for a specific government and culture. If one wanted to, one could say the Aslan should have "Clan Standing" instead of Social Standing for instance perhaps.

Anyway, mostly just rambling right now.

 

[Majestic7]

In my homebrewed system that combined bits and pieces from almost all editions of Traveller except GURPS, I've solved this by giving every character Social Standing and Charisma. Charisma is simply the base of all social skills, meaning certain ability to get along well with other people and understand how to push and pull them. Social Standing means how rich you are and how much political power you have with subtle differences depending on the society in question. Social Standing is usually only relevant within your own society, but Charisma works everywhere. (Difficult levels for stuff to do are only increased in stranger circumstances and with strange people.)

 

[Baron Sidur Haski]

Can a character's Charisma be rolled, really?

I realize that in some systems it needs to be defined for the sake of skill calculations and all that, but how do you really express a character's personality like that in any other way but role playing it out?

The one thing about Social Standing in Traveller that I never understood was, how do other people tell? Does everyone walk around checking each other's UPPs or something? If you had a SS of 5, but have lots of money, why couldn't you just say you were a Count and live at that level?

 

[cbrunish]

If you had a SS of 5, but have lots of money, why couldn't you just say you were a Count and live at that level?

Actually this happen many times in history. As long as the character has the money and the title of nobility was far enough away then they could get away with it. Also having an expertly forged patent of nobility would also help.

 

[AKAramis]

The one thing about Social Standing in Traveller that I never understood was, how do other people tell? Does everyone walk around checking each other's UPPs or something? If you had a SS of 5, but have lots of money, why couldn't you just say you were a Count and live at that level?

Estimating other's stats was a defined task in MegaTraveller. So you look them over, and estimate. On total truth, you get ±1 point; Some truth, ±1d3. No Truth, ±1d6.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Can a character's Charisma be rolled, really?

I realize that in some systems it needs to be defined for the sake of skill calculations and all that, but how do you really express a character's personality like that in any other way but role playing it out?

The one thing about Social Standing in Traveller that I never understood was, how do other people tell? Does everyone walk around checking each other's UPPs or something? If you had a SS of 5, but have lots of money, why couldn't you just say you were a Count and live at that level?

In a way, I wonder if the Vargr trait is slightly misnamed. Charisma for most races again IMO is based on their skills for dealing with others. A character with high levels of Steward, Leadership, Diplomacy or Carouse or some such will have a high "charisma" for game stat purposes in most versions of Traveller since they have the skill(s) to either be followed, be someone others want to have around, want to listen to or so forth. Guess I'd call the Vargr trait maybe "Pack Status" or some such..the ability to convince other Vargr that the person should be "top dog" (yay puns. ) in any "pack", be it a mercenary platoon, a crew on a corsair ship, a legit merchant ship crew or whatever. I'm considering this as I type this, but I'm thinking of for Vargr making the Vargr Charisma trait the plus or minus DM for any skill involving relating to another, if that other "person" is another Vargr. Toward other races, then the normal stat DM's apply.

As for living beyond your station to simulate a higher social standing, one could argue that it's not just a case of spending money, but knowing how to act, having the proper ettiquette and so forth. There's plenty of ways to live a fancy lifestyle that still scream low social status, low social status isn't just wealth in most societies. Guess I'd say if a SS 5 person were to try to emulate a SS of E (14, a count), they would have to start making some roles under skills like Art (Acting) or Persuade or some such to be convincing and not come across as some jerk with more money then sense. That and well, there's also the issue that impersonating a noble is probably illegal in the Imperium and/or on many worlds too...the real Nobility don't take kindly to some guy claiming he's of their station when he isn't.

 

[Mithras]

'Social standing' in whatever guise, Party Standing, Social Standing, Pack Charisma should depend only on the society in which it works.

A Vargr in Imperial space should only be concerned with his Soc Standing. In Solomani space he should instead have Party Standing. With his Vargr buddies over the border, its all a matter of Charisma - pack mentality.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

'Social standing' in whatever guise, Party Standing, Social Standing, Pack Charisma should depend only on the society in which it works.

A Vargr in Imperial space should only be concerned with his Soc Standing. In Solomani space he should instead have Party Standing. With his Vargr buddies over the border, its all a matter of Charisma - pack mentality.

For the most part this makes sense IMO, but again we hit the issue of a Vargr who's an Imperial Citizen (which is quite possible) dealing with other Vargr. Even if all the other Vargrs he's with Imperials, for dealing with them all I'd say the Vargr Charisma stat unless some issue was specific to Imperial society..like if one of the Vargrs in question was also an Imperial noble, and the surroundings demanded that the noble's title and standing be recognized. So again, a Vargr might have both Social Standing and the Vargr Charisma trait. Now if said Vargr did travel down to the Solomani Confedaration, then he might need to generate Party Standing (Although his party standing might be 2 on a 2d6 roll by default, or maybe even a zero, since he's a) Not a citizen of the Solomani Confederation and b) Albeit technically "uplifted", he otherwise isn't exactly a native of Terra, let alone human.).

 

[EDG]

It always seemed bizarre to me to have social standing as a stat. After all, it's not something intrinsic to a character (unlike their strength or intelligence or constitution or whatever).

Stats IMO shouldn't be something that go up or down depending on where you are or who you are talking to. Most other games I can think of have a separate "reputation" or "social standing/charisma/rank" mechanic.