So about those ship's boats

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

You could also change that Ship's Boat to a "Vehicle".

An Air/Raft, Ground Car, Speedboat or other personal transportation device (maybe a grav belt if you are REALLY nice). It fills the middle ground a bit.

Travellers don't really want houses etc, so vehicles make a nice option. They can sell them for cash or use them for whatever.

 

[vitalis6969]

I'm not really sure why Traveller as a game tends to draw such fiendish super cheap gaming styles... There are many ways you can handle this, the best that I have read here so far is to let them sell the boats, aka take money instead of the boat itself and turn that into a down payment on a jump capable ship. This way they can be Travellers and travel.... :wink:

If they want to keep the boats and run the local system, then do that too...

But seriously, please don't penalize your players for getting the boats during character gen, turn it into something good. And if you are really dead-set-against them having something, remember, it was YOUR bad for letting them get the boats in the first place. If you were going to have a problem with it, they should have been told BEFORE they made the characters.

My two cents: Let them have the boats, let them sell them, and let them apply the money in a way that will fit the campaign.

-V

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm not really sure why Traveller as a game tends to draw such fiendish super cheap gaming styles...

Because the collection of "stuff" and general wealth is the primary measure of success in a game with little to no experience system, so starting relatively poor or in debt is a comfortable tradition. After all, if the PCs are all rich, the Ref has to motivate them with something other than money...

 

[MongooseMatt]

After all, if the PCs are all rich, the Ref has to motivate them with something other than money...

In a galaxy where corporations can span light years, rich is a relative term. There are plenty of groups where 16 MCr or so is just a drop in the ocean. . .

 

[simonh]

Because the collection of "stuff" and general wealth is the primary measure of success in a game with little to no experience system, so starting relatively poor or in debt is a comfortable tradition. After all, if the PCs are all rich, the Ref has to motivate them with something other than money...

I think this problem comes from the RPG tradition of starting games with random collections of missfits with no common agenda and going from there. For a long time I've preferred to start a game by thinking about the motivations of the characetrs as a founding assumption. For example, I'll pitch a game to my group by saying 'You're a diplomatic mission to a remote, but potentially strategic planet', or 'You are the crew of a clapped out military resupply vessel touring a few far-flung outposts'. I don't impose character motivations, it's a matter of negotiation and I always try to give a number of options, but I do try to start the game before character generation with some agreement as to what the general motivations of the characters are.

Otherwise you can easily get into situations where there are destructive incompatibilities between character goals, false assumptions, missunderstandings and all sorts of other problems.

Simon Hibbs

 

[DCAnsell]

After all, if the PCs are all rich, the Ref has to motivate them with something other than money...

In a galaxy where corporations can span light years, rich is a relative term. There are plenty of groups where 16 MCr or so is just a drop in the ocean. . .

My primary concern with the benefit isn't so much that I don't trust my players with that much money to start with. I can set up challenges and situations to make a good game even if they aren't all hocking their socks for enough credits to buy a few bullets after making the ship payment.

I'm more concerned with relative values. Every other profession gets, at best, up to five ship shares that take 1% off of the initial cost of a ship for the group to use, with a single benefit roll. This even includes the nobles, who you'd think would be around the top of the economic food chain, at least from OTU sources. The obvious exception is the scout, and his or her gaining of a scout ship comes with obvious strings attached.

Any character who gets even 1 benefit roll in the navy can walk away with a ship's boat, no strings attached. And even more odd, they have the choice of that, or 2 ship shares, whose value can vary, but are very likely to total less then 2 MCr.

The more I look at this, I think it was an error, not something planned. Either that, or it just wasn't well thought out on the part of whoever did that particular line or two of rules, or the benefit table.

 

[kristof65]

The ship's boat itself isn't really unreasonable, you just have to make some tweaks in the situations surrounding it.

To me, ship's boats are the Navy's equivelent of our current militaries ground vehicles - trucks, cars, etc. Our government agencies sell these off all the time at ridiculously low prices, and the ones who usually sanp them up are military or civilian contractors to the military. Why? Because they often have advance notice of what's being sold.

The catch is that most of these vehicles are no longer useful to the military - they've been used and abused, and many have reached a point where it's long past economical for the military to keep operating them. Typically they've been reasonably well maintained for their age and mileage, but they look like crap, which lowers their percieved value even more.

So I view ship's boats in the same vein. These are the boats that are being sold off, scrapped, etc, and in some way, the PC ended up with possession of one. But it's old, ugly and generally not worth but a fraction of it's value as new on the resale market - maybe 1-5%. I'll be using 1d6% myself, with duplicate results allowing more die to be rolled. A lucky PC could end up with a ship's boat result that's worth 10-12% of new.

Just because something has a low resale value doesn't mean it's worthless to the person who owns it. I have a Toyota truck I bought for $25. When it was new, it was worth 500 times what I paid for it. I could sell it for a few hundred dollars, and make a little profit. But it's worth more to me to do my infrequent hauling than it is in cash - because I'd have to pony up even more money in the long run.

Same might be true for a PC who ends up with a ship's boat. Sure, they could sell it for a few hundred thousand credits, but they might find it more valuable to keep around and use as a "truck" in-system than sell it.

All in all, I think the only thing Mongoose did "wrong" with including it was not layout a few more ideas/guidelines on what kind of strings could be attached.

 

[Pyromancer]

The catch is that most of these vehicles are no longer useful to the military - they've been used and abused, and many have reached a point where it's long past economical for the military to keep operating them. Typically they've been reasonably well maintained for their age and mileage, but they look like crap, which lowers their percieved value even more.

A sure method to maximize wear and tear on vehicles is to give them to draftees.
Old Feldwebels with a habit to drive "gefechtsmäßig" don't help either.

 

[kristof65]

A sure method to maximize wear and tear on vehicles is to give them to draftees.

It doesn't have to be draftees, either. Anyone low on the totem pole in the organization's chain will usually do.

I've found that vehicles not driven by their owners or maintained by their drivers are subject to a lot of abuse. The more drivers a given vehicle has, the worse it gets.

Military vehicles get an even shorter stick - if a civilian job requires you to be able to drive, very rarely will the company let you learn/practice for your license in their vehicles. I've never worked at a civilian company that will, yet it happened at every command I was stationed at in the Navy. One of the places I was stationed at had at least three people learn to drive on our division's vehicle, and another half-dozen learn how to drive a stick. One of the new E2s learning to drive is what finally "killed" our ten year old Dodge van, but our replacement wasn't much better - we got a five year old Toyota van with a stick shift instead. We burned the first clutch out on that within 6 months of it being assigned to us.

The ship's boats that Traveller Navy's are "giving away" have probably been learner's vehicles for hundreds of small craft pilots each. Thanks to that, and other abuses, they're probably full of dents and dings from rough docking attempts; landing gear that's been repaired multiple times from landing too hard too many times; controls that have been repeatedly busted off from stressed out student pilots; a mish-mash of not quite 100% compatible parts and pieces from engineers scavanging things to keep things running; ripped, torn and stained (don't ask, you don't want to know) upholstery; missing access plates; about a 100 coats of paint, probably in at least half a dozen different colors; and all sorts of other little wonderful quirks.

 

[barasawa]

Ships Boat or Ship Shares.

Your PC took the Ships Boat instead of the 2 Ship Shares.
The value of those two shares can easily range from about 0.5 MCr to over 8.5 MCr. So if he sells the Ships Boat, don't ream him too much over the price. (Ship Share Values on Page 36.)

As to applying some issues to his new (to him) toy, perfectly reasonable, but it needs to be moderated by you, the GM. (Otherwise random rolls can do really screwy things that neither you nor him will appreciate.)

You can be sure the Navy didn't let him walk off the base with the papers to a brand new military vehicle. It may be perfectly functional, but there is no way it's brand new. I'd suggest rolling on the Old Ships table on page 136 to give you some ideas. Feel free to change those around to something that fits the circumstances, and your campaign.
Just remember, this isn't Paranoia, you aren't out to kill the PCs. (Partly because they expect to survive, and don't have clone families...)

 

[simonh]

Just remember, this isn't Paranoia, you aren't out to kill the PCs. (Partly because they expect to survive, and don't have clone families...)

Good point, for most games "sure she's beat up and sometimes takes a bit of careful handling, but she's never let us down yet" is probably what you're after. Punishing players with unreliable kit and unnecessary complications is a lazy substitute for having a real adventure to occupy their time with.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Valarian]

Punishing players with unreliable kit and unnecessary complications is a lazy substitute for having a real adventure to occupy their time with.

Of course, necessary complications are another matter :wink:

 

[kristof65]

Otoh: Why does it have to be a vehicle/small craft/ship that your former employer "mustered out" and gave to you because it reached "end of life". All the table says it's a "Mustering out benefit" and just because there is a cash table it get's interpreted as "your employer gave you this"

It's been a long time since I've interpreted the mustering out tables that way. I see them as an indication of what the PC has acquired over the years - what they've managed to save up, and what they've managed to spend their money on. A few things, like the Scout Ship, are actually awarded at the end of the PCs service, but most is just something they've been working for during their career.

Things like ship shares are kind of like the US Military's various funds matching education programs for their personnel - the PC commits a certain amounts of funds per month/year/etc, their career matches it, and if they meet a certain threshold, they are granted a ship share.

I think the key thing though, is for the players and GMs to be creative in describing these things. Frex, if I had a Navy PC who did 3-4 terms, then had a mishap event that resulted in him being kicked out of the Navy, and his mustering out rolls for his valid terms resulted in a ship's boat, I would probably say that he stole the ship's boat as payback for the event that discharged him. Yes, I know technically the acquisition of the ship's boat couldn't happen on the term with the mishap, but if it works, why not go with it?

 

[DCAnsell]

Ships Boat or Ship Shares.

Your PC took the Ships Boat instead of the 2 Ship Shares.
The value of those two shares can easily range from about 0.5 MCr to over 8.5 MCr. So if he sells the Ships Boat, don't ream him too much over the price. (Ship Share Values on Page 36.)

Except that you can't cash in the shares, whereas the ship's boat, in the rules as written, puts 16 MCr (at least potentially) into the pockets of the lucky guy or gal who happens to get it.

Looked at another way, 1/6 of young men and women who join the Navy for a single four year term walk away multi-millionaires. That's just silliness, but it is the truth of the matter, as the rules currently stand.

 

[Marikir]

Ships Boat or Ship Shares.

Your PC took the Ships Boat instead of the 2 Ship Shares.
The value of those two shares can easily range from about 0.5 MCr to over 8.5 MCr. So if he sells the Ships Boat, don't ream him too much over the price. (Ship Share Values on Page 36.)

Except that you can't cash in the shares, whereas the ship's boat, in the rules as written, puts 16 MCr (at least potentially) into the pockets of the lucky guy or gal who happens to get it.

Looked at another way, 1/6 of young men and women who join the Navy for a single four year term walk away multi-millionaires. That's just silliness, but it is the truth of the matter, as the rules currently stand.

Being pedantic...but, only 1/6 of those that pass their term without any thing happening that forces them to leave the service, i.e. Mishaps.

And only if they decide to forgo the cash side of the table. It's not as straightforward as you say.

Plus...these tables are for Travellers (PCs) and important NPCs. If they got the boat and cashed it in and decided to not go adventuring...well, that was easy. Make up a new PC.

 

[DCAnsell]

Being pedantic...but, only 1/6 of those that pass their term without any thing happening that forces them to leave the service, i.e. Mishaps.

And only if they decide to forgo the cash side of the table. It's not as straightforward as you say.

Plus...these tables are for Travellers (PCs) and important NPCs. If they got the boat and cashed it in and decided to not go adventuring...well, that was easy. Make up a new PC.

Choices are always there, but 16MCr seems a lot nicer in the bank (or whatever) then 50,000 Cr (which is what the same (highest) roll gets you on the navy cash table)

This little benefits table entry certainly isn't game-breaking, I just really think it needs a no-sale clause like the scout gets, though it may or may not need the recall bit.

 

[kristof65]

Except that you can't cash in the shares, whereas the ship's boat, in the rules as written, puts 16 MCr (at least potentially) into the pockets of the lucky guy or gal who happens to get it.

In all my years of role-playing, it's been kind of a "standard" among many groups and many game systems that equipment sold by PCs is sold back at only 1/2 it's listed price in the book. Some game systems specifically say that, many don't, but it's been my experience that is accepted practice, and I've never heard a player complain about it, regardless of game system.

That, IMO, means any GM who allows a PC to sell back a ship's boat for anything more than 8 MCr has other issues than the value of the ship's boat. I feel that any player and GM who can't come to a reasonable compromise that works for both player and GM either already have underlying issues/disagreements about the game, or are headed in that direction.

Frankly, as a GM, regardless of what the RAW say, I simply don't beleive that the ship's boat benefit is a new vessel, and by no means will I let a PC sell it for the price of a new one. I will gladly work with player to come to an agreement that adds color and background to the PC, and potential campaign hooks for the game. If a player is unwilling to compromise with me for the sake of the game, I will seriously re-consider letting them be a player in my game.

Basically, the more hooks and potential strings the player agrees to for the ship's boat, the more value it will have. FREX, if the player tells me that his PC stole it as he was leaving the Naval base, I'm likely to let him resell it for a lot more because of the campaign hook of the Navy searching for him to get their property back/punish him. OTOH, if the PC wants it with no strings attached, it isn't going to be worth nearly as much.

 

[Captain Jonah]

As Others have said, its one of those odd things. Like everything else in the game the results of mustering out are subject to GM rule. If you personaly are not happy then put a line through it and write ship share in biro next to it in your rule book. :twisted:

One of the main points of traveller (to me) is the traveling. There are loads of sci fi games around that don't move planets. A Ships boat may be a load of cash (but who wants to buy it) or it starts adventurers visiting the orbital stations and near planets and maybe to that wreck several of them seem to know about. Or as has been said, don't make it a boat, it can be anything which suits the characters background. Was he a merc, a de weaponed light fighter, a medic with an old ambulance, a water submarine, a planetary grav hauler, a short range fuel skiff etc etc.

I tend to be more flexible than the rules say in starting a group, several times I have run multi ship games and been in such games as a player.
What people start with or get later is up to the GM so do what is fun for your players, If your players roll a boat and want to sell it then ask them why they IC don't retire, I would with a few megacredits in a high return account

Or instead of an actual boat leave it as a sort of IOU, you save someones family from death in back story and he owes you big time but cannot repay you then. Later when you want that new jump engine he just happens to run a starport and can get you one for next to nothing but this clears the debt.

I have run two games where players started with boats from mustering.

In one the player had rolled one but I told him he would not start with it, Instead I gave him details on the boat he was co pilot of as a short hauler frieght mover and smuggler in his last term.
later when he was running to join the rest of the group before they jumped out system he, erm, stole it as he had the access codes and I made it easy. It was later used to distract some rather nasty hostiles and blown up.

The other was a moduler cutter sans module and very beat up (lots of negatives) This eventualy would lead to its mother ship which was a merc cruiser in worse state. The players sold everything to refit the merc cruiser and the campaign became merc based.