Sneak attack on flanked combatant with ranged weapon

[Mark Dunder]

I wanted to point out that a Zingaran/ Thief/ Pirate has the ability to sneak attack an opponent that is being flanked, and the sneak attacker may use a ranged weapon. (page 270 Conan RPG PE)

This means a Zingaran Soldier/archer "can" take advantage of a character that is being threatened and flanked by an ally.

So Flank Shot, as a feat, may not be so off base, for those of you contemplating its' use.

 

[ricardo440]

You can sneak attack if one (or more) of the following conditions is met

1) The opponent is flat footed
2) the opponent is denied his dex bonus to defence (e.g. struck by an invisible attacker, or paralysed)
3) if you are flanking the opponent.

So if you allow an archer to flank, then yes he should gain the sneak attack.

I personally think that this would be too good, and the balance between archery and melee is actually good where it is.

 

[Mark Dunder]

No I did not mean to say that the archer should be able to sneak attack because he has a Feat that allows a flanking shot. It was made clear that only Zingarans, Thieves, and Pirates could sneak attack. My point was that a sneak attack could be done with a ranged weapon. One of the conditions (there are other conditions) that had to be met for a sneak attack, was the opponent is prevented from normal dodging due to being flanked. According to the Flanking rule, flanking could only be done during melee. Sneak attack has presented a contradiction to this rule, and I wanted to point that out. If a sneak attack by a ranged weapon into a melee has as one (of many) of its' prerequisites that the target is flanked, then the rule that only melee combat can use flanking, is invalidated. Thus archers should be able to make a flanking attack upon a melee.

Does anyone else see the contradiction?

 

[Voltumna]

My point was that a sneak attack could be done with a ranged weapon. One of the conditions (there are other conditions) that had to be met for a sneak attack, was the opponent is prevented from normal dodging due to being flanked.

Ranged attacks have always been possible within 30' and if the usual conditions for a sneak attack are met, except flanking, as you need to be engaged in melee to flank. I think the ranged sneak attack rules are pretty clear there too, as are the flanking rules. But as Ricardo sais, if you allow an archer to flank, then he can sneak attack. You could make a feat for that, just as there is a Ranged finesse feat.

IMO and a little off topic, a ranged attacker could more likely get a sneak attack if he is sniping. There is the feat Out of thin air, that reduces the hide penalties after attacking from hiding, and Hyboria's Fallen has a combat maneuver that would give you a bonus to hit and to hide. Even Ambush would work great, as you would get a full round of surprise attacks from hiding.

 

[argo]

No. You have misunderstood the rule.

You cannot sneak attack an opponent who is being flanked. You can sneak attack an opponent who you are flanking. That is, you must be one of the characters who qualifies as flanking.

Imagine three guys attacking a Barbarian in the following formation

1xx
2Bx
xx3

Attackers 1 and 3 are in flanking position and may sneak attack if they have that ability. Attacker 2 is not in flanking position and so may not use his sneak attack.

Extrapolate that out to a situation where attacker 2 is at range and you see the same logic applies.

Hope that helps.

 

[Diabolus]

As Voltumna says, there is no contradiction in the rules. Three conditions are given that would allow a sneak attack (See ricardo440's post). Two of them can be met by a ranged weapon under an additional restriction (range 30 feet or less).

That does not imply that the third case (flanking) is in any way available (or an invalid rule altogether) as it DOES NOT APPLY TO THE SITUATION because ranged weapons cannot flank.

If you are saying that if you have two allies who are in opposite flanking positions on your target and think that *that* flanking "condition* allows you to meet the condition then I point you to the AE p171 "Being flanked does not render you unable to dodge or parry, though you may still be sneak attacked if you are flanked." and the Defence section AE p148 says "Whenever a character has a chance to defend himself, he must declare if he is dodging or parrying his enemies. Changing between the two modes of defence is a free action. It can be done each time the character is attacked if so desired but must be done before the opponent makes his attack roll.".

So there's really nothing in the rules that says a ranged weapon can make a sneak attack due to the "flanked" condition. The other two conditions, sure.

I'll further agree with ricardo440 that if you are contemplating a feat that would allow a ranged weapon to flank it is really bending the rules and shifting the balance of power to the ranged weapon, but that it would allow the third condition to be met.

 

[Diabolus]

Flanking is a combat modifier to an attack (which is calculated when making the attack, not a global condition like exausted, dazed, asleep, prone etc). If you are not the one DOING the flanking, you cannot take advantage of Flanking because you are not.

You don't get the +2 to hit and you cannot make a sneak attack unless you meet another condition (i.e. You are invisible etc)

 

[Voltumna]

or who is being flanked.

That is like saying that a character that is flat footed by loosing initiative on the first round of combat, can be sneak attacked by any opponent, which is not true, only the opponents that have a better initiative order, and thus opponents that qualify, can sneak attack him, if they have that ability.

 

[Mark Dunder]

It's an "or" option. Or who is being flanked.

A ranged weapon is allowed to sneak attack. But if the target is being flanked, it does not say the sneak attacker must be doing the flanking, then the shooter may sneak attack, so long as the flanked target cannot dodge.

A small loop hole maybe, but that's my reading of it. To make this an iron clad rule, you would have to state: "A sneak attack with a ranged weapon, cannot use a target's status of being flanked as a qualifier." But the "or who is being flanked" is still there in the rules.

No sneak attack is ever allowed if the character can use Dodge Defence, even if you are one of the flankers. So that is a true regardless of the character being flanked or not. But there is not a rule saying a ranged weapon sneak attack "cannot" be made due to the only condition that the target is flanked. Again, it only says the target is being flanked, not that the sneak attacker must be doing the flanking.

The statement below:

You cannot sneak attack an opponent who is being flanked.

Is contridicted by:

AE p171 "Being flanked does not render you unable to dodge or parry, though you may still be sneak attacked if you are flanked."

This statement:

You can sneak attack an opponent who you are flanking.

Adds the words "you are flanking" to replace the rules words "is being flanked." "Is being" has never meant "you are." That is an attempt to clarify the rules to yourself. It only shows to me that the rule has "not" been clarified.

Keep up the barrage, maybe a rules maker will amend the rule in favor (again) of the vaunted (I like that word) melee fighter.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Sorry, I apologize for that previous post I deleted, it was erroneously worded, and I didn't want to be totally misunderstood. Also, I may have made concessions I have since rethought. Again, sorry.

 

[ricardo440]

You cannot flank an opponent with a ranged weapon (if you add a feat to do this this obviously changes) meaning you can never get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon due to the condition of FLANKING AN OPPONENT

However with a ranged weapon (under 30ft) you can still meet one of the other criteria.
Your opponent is flat footed.
Your opponent is denied his dex bonus (e.g. pinned or paralysed sleeping...)

In these situations you can sneak attack with a bow.

If you added a feat that allowed you to flank at range, then you should reasonably expect a player to assume that means he can sneak attack using that FLANK.


P.S. I re-read the entry in the AE edition of the rules, and I hve to say I can see exactly why you are confused. It is not written very well because it throws away the line about who is doing the flanking.

This next quote should clear it up. YOU have to be doing the flanking to get the sneak attack. i.e. you have to qualify for the +2 to hit.

from the SRD:
Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

 

[Oly]

Ricardo440's given my understanding of sneak attacks.

1) The opponent is flat footed
2) the opponent is denied his dex bonus to defence (e.g. struck by an invisible attacker, or paralysed)
3) if you are flanking the opponent.

No sneak attack is ever allowed if the character can use Dodge Defence, even if you are one of the flankers. So that is a true regardless of the character being flanked or not.

That's not my understanding of the rules at all, it's not how I've run it either. If you are flanking an opponent then you can sneak attack them (presuming of course you can sneak attack). As Diabolus quotes from the book "Being flanked does not render you unable to dodge or parry, though you may still be sneak attacked if you are flanked." I've not got my rulebook with me so I can't check it though, anyone got one to hand?

If you do go ahead and add a feat/rule to allow a range attacker to flank his target then I think he would automatically gain the ability to sneak attack him too, possibly with the usual 30 foot rule of the sneak attack ability.

 

[Mark Dunder]

"Being flanked does not render you unable to dodge or parry, though you may still be sneak attacked if you are flanked."

Correct, my statement

No sneak attack is ever allowed if the character can use Dodge Defence, even if you are one of the flankers.

is wrong.

The rule still does not say you have to be the one doing the flanking, only that the character has someone flanking him.

FOO
SVO
OFO

O = open square
F = flanker
V = victim
S = sneak attacker

In the above example, the sneak attacker is not directly flanking the victim. The victim is being flanked by the other attackers. Does this mean the sneak attack cannot be done?

 

[Oly]

The rule still does not say you have to be the one doing the flanking, only that the character has someone flanking him.

I think the rule for sneak attacks does say that, I've certainly been playing it that the sneak attacker must be one of the "flankers". I can't check my rulebook right now so hands up I might be completely wrong.

However the SRD extract posted above does say "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage <snip> when the rogue flanks her target" which implies my understanding of the rule. It could have been changed for Conan though.....

In the above example, the sneak attacker is not directly flanking the victim. The victim is being flanked by the other attackers. Does this mean the sneak attack cannot be done?

Given my understanding of the rules the two "flankers" aren't actually flanking the target, they need to be opposite. Even if they were S would not be able to do a sneak attack, well presuming my take on the rules is right.

123
4X5
678

2 and 7 would be flanking positions, as would 1 and 8. 2 and 7 aren't.

 

[ricardo440]

Durn:

You example is slightly off

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking

you need to be opposite each other not just almost opposite each other.

And in the SRD you have to be the one flanking (i.e. gaining +2 to hit) in order to use your sneak attack.
I think the wording in the AE Conan is not as clear as it should be. And explains why you are confused. It implies that if anyone flanks the target then you get sneak attack even if it is not you.

 

[Cavalorn]

I think the wording in the AE Conan is not as clear as it should be. And explains why you are confused. It implies that if anyone flanks the target then you get sneak attack even if it is not you.

My bad. Sorry to have caused the confusion.

"Being flanked does not render you unable to dodge or parry, though you may still be sneak attacked if you are flanked." - This comment explains the dangers faced by a person who is flanked. They can be sneak attacked by one of the people doing the flanking.

"Only characters with levels in certain classes, such as thief or pirate, or from certain races, such as Zingaran, can make sneak attacks. A sneak attack can only be made against a character who is unable to use Dodge Defence or Parry Defence to defend himself, or who is being flanked." This should read "being flanked by the sneak attacker."

(Note to self: never, ever use the passive voice. 'Or who the attacker is flanking' would have been wholly unambiguous.)

Essentially, the flanking condition for sneak attacks is the 3.X revision of the old Thief ability to 'backstab'. There is no facing in d20 (nor in Conan), so counters don't have any 'back' to stab. Flanking is what replaces that. It establishes a stabbable 'back' relative to the attacker rather than an absolute one. This is also why creatures with no discernible front or back, such as oozes, can't be flanked in d20.

Please note that this isn't an authoritative Mongoose statement, but since it was me who edited the AE and caused the confusion, I do feel I ought to speak up here!

Incidentally, if you want to play Conan in true authentic hardcore style, you should really refer to a 'round the corner stabby bonus' instead of a Flanking bonus. (This being what Ian Sturrock did when he couldn't remember the word 'flank' in a Conan game.)

 

[Mark Dunder]

Well, done! I'm glad somebody is listening. Sometimes, you just have to stretch out that word count.

That clears it up for me here. I apologise for ruffling the feathers, but some ignorant ass has to, and I fit the bill.

My next thread shall be: Why play a miniature game? Let's play an RPG instead!

 

[argo]

The rule still does not say you have to be the one doing the flanking, only that the character has someone flanking him.

Yes, for the love of god yes it does! :evil:

Any time the thief's target would be denied dodge or parry bonus to Defense Value (wether the target actually has a dodge bonus or not), or when the thief flanks the target, the thief's attack deals extra damage

It says when the thief flanks the target. Not "when the target is being flanked" or "when the theif's allies flank the target" but when THE THIEF flanks.

I don't think that Im bothered by the fact that so many people have told you this and you still refuse to listen as much as I'm bothered by the fact that this is the same rule you yourself refered to as evedience back in your first post. Which means you did not read and comprehend the rule you were citing before jumping in with both feet to make a big stink.


I sincerly Hope that Helps