sneak att/ flat footed
- Thread starter Belkregos
- Start date
Yes when he starts first and attacks an oppoponent who is flat footed ( that means he denies his Dex modifier ) the rule of sneak attack is applied.
Also when he doesnt start first at the initiative but he attacks an opponent whos initiative is lower the rule of sneak attack is also applied.
Also when he doesnt start first at the initiative but he attacks an opponent whos initiative is lower the rule of sneak attack is also applied.
You apply the conditions of your sneak attack until the opponent's Initiative comes up and he can act. Until his Initiative, he's flat footed, so whatever you can do between now and his go applies.Voltumna said:
Also, consider the effects of massive damage (AE, p 163) - it is possible to kill your opponent with one shot, if said shot delivers 20 points of damage or more. :twisted:
Look again at the description of Sneak Attack (AE, p 177). If conditions change you can make another attempt. Also, even if your attacker can make ONE kind of special reaction (Reflexive Parry), if you attack with other attack type (Ranged, in the example in the book). So, play with cunning and guile, and look for the opportunities.
Also remember, if he flanks he can also Sneak Attack.
And, look at the Light Footed Feat. The Thief in my group has it: 1d10 + 2d8 damage (Arming Sword) when doing a Sneak Attack. His Init mod is +10, rude. Doing about an average of 13 pts of damage at 1st level. Of course, He can't hold his own in a toe-to-toe fight; he'll go down like a saigon whore.
And, look at the Light Footed Feat. The Thief in my group has it: 1d10 + 2d8 damage (Arming Sword) when doing a Sneak Attack. His Init mod is +10, rude. Doing about an average of 13 pts of damage at 1st level. Of course, He can't hold his own in a toe-to-toe fight; he'll go down like a saigon whore.
SetWorshipper
Mongoose
I was just about to post a topic on Sneak Attack but seeing as its Deadlyness was mentioned her, I'll reply.
Sneak Attack seems overly powerful for the campaign. Or more specifically it makes thieve's the kings of combat due to the fact they can easily force massive damage or die saves where as other classes cannot. Upping the damage to d8s just make this even more often.
A thief with Improved Feint does not even need to flank or surprise the target to use Sneak Attack. Sense Motive+BAB is still rarely as high as a Bluff skill. Sure Feinting only allows them one attack, but it almost guarentee's a fortitude save for massive damage. These save's are rarely made.
A level 8 thief with Improved Init, Light-Footed, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Feint, has the potential to take out 4 decent level opponents before they can act. Win Surprise Round, dish out a sneak attack (enemy must save). Wins initiative due to good reflex and improved init - Takes his 3 attacks against his flat footed enemies....one on each, forces 3 saves. Most likely thats 4 dead NPCs before anyone else acts, 4 even or higher level ones. No other class can do that.
This isn't like a normal DnD campaign either, you don't have 90% of the bad guys immune to criticals/sneak attacks.
Any comments?
Sneak Attack seems overly powerful for the campaign. Or more specifically it makes thieve's the kings of combat due to the fact they can easily force massive damage or die saves where as other classes cannot. Upping the damage to d8s just make this even more often.
A thief with Improved Feint does not even need to flank or surprise the target to use Sneak Attack. Sense Motive+BAB is still rarely as high as a Bluff skill. Sure Feinting only allows them one attack, but it almost guarentee's a fortitude save for massive damage. These save's are rarely made.
A level 8 thief with Improved Init, Light-Footed, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Feint, has the potential to take out 4 decent level opponents before they can act. Win Surprise Round, dish out a sneak attack (enemy must save). Wins initiative due to good reflex and improved init - Takes his 3 attacks against his flat footed enemies....one on each, forces 3 saves. Most likely thats 4 dead NPCs before anyone else acts, 4 even or higher level ones. No other class can do that.
This isn't like a normal DnD campaign either, you don't have 90% of the bad guys immune to criticals/sneak attacks.
Any comments?
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
Improved feint still requires a move equivalent action, preventing a full attack action. So using that feat would mitigate the constant sneak attacking.
But I would say that at the start of a round, an 8th level thief adjacent to 4 opponents that are surprised and lose initiative would be deadly.
But I would say that at the start of a round, an 8th level thief adjacent to 4 opponents that are surprised and lose initiative would be deadly.
I think the +2d8 was because he had the Light Footed feat. Being Zingaran on top of that would give him a whopping +2d8+1d6! (Or maybe that should be +3d8, the Zingaran ability is a little unclear on that.)InsomNY said:
Yeah, sure, I can agree that Sneak Attack might be a little bit overpowered in Conan.SetWorshipper said:
Maybe a houserule could be to simply remove the Thief's Sneak Attack Style ability (so damage would be restricted to d6's). That will at least lower the damage a bit. If you think thats to hard on the Thief, give the class something else instead (Uncanny Dodge, for example).
Just an idea.
I can imagine that there's a few Feats (As demonstrated) that arc up the Theif's chances of as quick kill .... But he/she's really not supposed to like an Assasin ???
Or am I wrong?
I would think that the Sneak Attack would only 'last' while an opponent was unaware of the attack; IE- basically a 'surprise hit'. I would have practically thought that an aware opponent would have his bonuses back again (not-Flat Footed) once engaged in melee (even 'flanked')
Can you Sneak Attack with a missile weapon at all, or does it have to be close contact with a hand weapon ? I was thinking of blowguns, thrown daggers, etc.
If you dispose of your foe quickly and quietly (20+ points of damage with a failed save) - then move onto the next target ... then that's fine. Clever use of combinations of Class Skills and Feats is perfectly fair.
Is there a Conan 'Assassin Template' in any of the published suppliments, or has Anyone made one up at all ?
I think that Dr. Skull's Conan Site had a few rules on garrotes,etc.
Or am I wrong?
I would think that the Sneak Attack would only 'last' while an opponent was unaware of the attack; IE- basically a 'surprise hit'. I would have practically thought that an aware opponent would have his bonuses back again (not-Flat Footed) once engaged in melee (even 'flanked')
Can you Sneak Attack with a missile weapon at all, or does it have to be close contact with a hand weapon ? I was thinking of blowguns, thrown daggers, etc.
If you dispose of your foe quickly and quietly (20+ points of damage with a failed save) - then move onto the next target ... then that's fine. Clever use of combinations of Class Skills and Feats is perfectly fair.
Is there a Conan 'Assassin Template' in any of the published suppliments, or has Anyone made one up at all ?
I think that Dr. Skull's Conan Site had a few rules on garrotes,etc.
SetWorshipper
Mongoose
I don't think conan needs an "Assassin" template per se.
A thief with enough sneak attack and surprise can easily simulate the "Death Attack" by forcing a fort save for more than 20 damage.
They can even spend a fate point for max damage and guarentee death.
With Improved Feint, it doesn't matter that you can only get 1 attack off. That 1 sneak attack will deal more damage than all your normal attacks, and pretty much guarentee death.
A thief with enough sneak attack and surprise can easily simulate the "Death Attack" by forcing a fort save for more than 20 damage.
They can even spend a fate point for max damage and guarentee death.
With Improved Feint, it doesn't matter that you can only get 1 attack off. That 1 sneak attack will deal more damage than all your normal attacks, and pretty much guarentee death.
Ahh, I missed the Light-Footed thing, dang it. 
See what happens when I skim the post in order to be quick with the snarky comment?
As to sneak attack being overpowered, I've seen this discussed many times and for many D20/D&D games. I've argued both sides of the matter. I see it as such:
(1) sneak attack is a core ability of thieves/rogues/etc. These characters tend to be weak in a one-on-one fight, but their ambush and dirty fighting techniques (i.e. flanking SA) fit the character concept very well.
(2) The damage dealt generally doesn't match a warrior-type's raw output over time, though Improved Feint changes this somewhat. Thieves still find it harder to connect multiple times per round.
(3) If it snubs common sense for each flanking attack to be a sneak attack, house-rule it to only apply to one flanked attack per target per round. you could also deny SA samage on any Finesse attack that fails to penetrate armor.
(4) Especially in Conan, the thief takes the place of an assassin very nicely, especially with levels in another class. If they can get the jump on a small group of weaker targets, it's extremely cool to be able to silence them all in 1 round before they raise an alarm.
(5) I've spend over $300 on this bloody game so far and I haven't played so much as a session. Is it any wonder I'm so grumpy on the boards? :x
See what happens when I skim the post in order to be quick with the snarky comment?As to sneak attack being overpowered, I've seen this discussed many times and for many D20/D&D games. I've argued both sides of the matter. I see it as such:
(1) sneak attack is a core ability of thieves/rogues/etc. These characters tend to be weak in a one-on-one fight, but their ambush and dirty fighting techniques (i.e. flanking SA) fit the character concept very well.
(2) The damage dealt generally doesn't match a warrior-type's raw output over time, though Improved Feint changes this somewhat. Thieves still find it harder to connect multiple times per round.
(3) If it snubs common sense for each flanking attack to be a sneak attack, house-rule it to only apply to one flanked attack per target per round. you could also deny SA samage on any Finesse attack that fails to penetrate armor.
(4) Especially in Conan, the thief takes the place of an assassin very nicely, especially with levels in another class. If they can get the jump on a small group of weaker targets, it's extremely cool to be able to silence them all in 1 round before they raise an alarm.
(5) I've spend over $300 on this bloody game so far and I haven't played so much as a session. Is it any wonder I'm so grumpy on the boards? :x
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
I like the thieves sneak attack as it is. In the most extreme example, (presented above) a thief can get 4 solid hits (kills) in 1 round, assuming he starts adjacent to the 4 opponents and has surprise!
Now I can see a situation where that would happen, but 9 times out of 10, combat shouldn't start that way, in which case a thief's sneak attack isn't going to have the same impact.
Has anyone had a high level thief in their campaign that has completely unbalanced the combats?
Now I can see a situation where that would happen, but 9 times out of 10, combat shouldn't start that way, in which case a thief's sneak attack isn't going to have the same impact.
Has anyone had a high level thief in their campaign that has completely unbalanced the combats?
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
InsomNY said:
InsomNY, I am looking to move to Weschester County, NY in the upcoming future. If it works out I will be looking to find a Conan game. Perhaps then you will be able to play!
If sneak attack is overpowered, I would be more concerned from the PCs perspective than anything else. You know, the usual; very deadly effects are, in the long run, a disadvantage to the PCs (because they will eventually end up dead because of them!)Hyborian Apeman said:
If one of my players had a Thief character who occasionally sliced through foes with his sneak attacks, I wouldn't really mind. Let him kick some ass! Only if he totally stole the stage from the other characters would that be a problem.
I'd be more hesitant of putting my players up against high level Thieves though (or Pirates for that matter). The not-unlikely chance of an instant kill in the first round is a much bigger problem if its one of the PCs getting wasted (IMHO, of course).
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
I'll give you one disadvantage for Sneak Attack- once upon a time a pair of charcters were chasing a fleeing sorcerer. To cover his tracks, he hurled a sphere of an alchemical preperation at them. The dust was like a low grade Grey Lotus- it provoked uncontrolleld Fighting Madness for 1d4 rounds. The Soldier made his Fortitude save, the Thief did not. The Thief has Two Weapon Fighting from cross classing with Pirate and was behind the Soldier to begin with. The Soldier received in the order of 40 more points of damage before he got a chance to act. The moral of the story is- keep an eye on your own Thief....8)
Raven
Raven
