Small Ship Econ vs Macro Econ

[GypsyComet]

Extracted from another topic:

While the Trade Codes are intended to give a broader picture of a region's trade flows, the passenger, freight, and cargo rules are specifically meant for PC scale ship-based commerce. That can, and has for the past 35 years, produce some odd-looking rules and results if you look at them in the context of large-scale economic modeling.

T4's Pocket Empires (computer not included) is a macro-econ toolkit, but not really useful during a game session.

CT's Trillion Credit Squadron, also often mistaken for a macro-econ model, is not intended to be used that way. It's a resource control system for a fleet campaign game, and nothing more. Same with the similar rules in the original Striker.

MGT's trade chapter is slanted heavily towards use in an RPG context where money needs to be tight to create story flow. As long as you don't have a Broker-3 running around breaking things, it even works.

Not for everyone, though:

some weird rules (econ system and the like).

I would love to hear the gory details, pitfalls, and fixes that people have found necessary. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it can't evolve...

 

[DFW]

I would love to hear the gory details, pitfalls, and fixes that people have found necessary. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it can't evolve...

I believe Marc has stated that the system is designed so as to force PC's to adventure. A laudable goal for an RPG.

That being said, the system was intentionally mis-designed for even small scale trade. It doesn't follow supply & demand econ. In the system, no goods travel more than 2 parsecs as, based on freight rates, no ship could be designed to carry them and even break even on bare bone costs.

 

[GypsyComet]

Another metagame construct, perhaps? J3 and higher are mobile enough to derail a prepared Referee completely, but a J1 or J2 ship can be much more easily anticipated, pinned down, and forced to adventure...

 

[DFW]

Another metagame construct, perhaps? J3 and higher are mobile enough to derail a prepared Referee completely, but a J1 or J2 ship can be much more easily anticipated, pinned down, and forced to adventure...

VERY possible. Indeed, that might explain it.

 

[Morte]

I would love to hear the gory details, pitfalls, and fixes that people have found necessary. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it can't evolve...

I believe Marc has stated that the system is designed so as to force PC's to adventure.

I think was specifically to make them use the speculative trade system, rather than to adventure as such. It tends to be hard to break even on passengers/freight unless you have the best ships (400 dton fattie) and best routes (shuttling back and forth around a hi-pop). But you can make a mint on spec trade with some starting capital, and it's usually more profitable if you wander around a bit, so it does tend to support adventuring indirectly.

If anything, I've found down the years that OTU trade rules discourage tramp trader types from having adventures. An A2 Far Trader with a mortgage might cost Cr 7500/day just sitting on the plascrete doing nothing. If somebody comes along and offers the PCs their Cr 2000 savings to spend 2 days looking for their missing girlfriend, the PCs are liable to say "sorry, can't afford it". Fortunately many editions have an arbitrary and illogical "you must spend a week on planet to be able to make trade rolls" rule, which means that since they have to hang around anyway the Cr 2000 from the patron is extra money.

What the world really needs is cheaper ships, by a factor of 10-50, and the freight/pax/spec rates adjusting down to suit. Then some bunch of space bums running a beat up old starship wouldn't automatically be participants in the world of high finance, expecting to be paid like the millionaire businessmen they are. [And people in unmortgaged ships wouldn't have a license to print money.]

PC trading ships have the price tags of jet airliners and the behaviour of coastal freighters. It's incoherent design.

Still, one copes.

 

[DFW]

I think was specifically to make them use the speculative trade system, rather than to adventure as such. ... But you can make a mint on spec trade with some starting capital,

The "Golden pair" flaw was not intentional. I think maybe GURPS plugged that flaw. I'm not sure though as haven't used that trade system.

 

[GypsyComet]

If anything, I've found down the years that OTU trade rules discourage tramp trader types from having adventures. An A2 Far Trader with a mortgage might cost Cr 7500/day just sitting on the plascrete doing nothing. If somebody comes along and offers the PCs their Cr 2000 savings to spend 2 days looking for their missing girlfriend, the PCs are liable to say "sorry, can't afford it". Fortunately many editions have an arbitrary and illogical "you must spend a week on planet to be able to make trade rolls" rule, which means that since they have to hang around anyway the Cr 2000 from the patron is extra money.

Arbitrary and illogical? Maybe for someone on a fixed route who already has contacts and a local broker on retainer.

This is also the scraps around the edges of the shipping economy. The shipments that PCs pick up are not necessarily sitting around waiting for a tramp freighter. They may only become available on Day 4, even if you've had a broker looking since Day 1. If PCs are forced to do their own legwork, a week is actually pretty generous.

Not to mention the effects that these backwater worlds have on commerce...

"Hey, Gus, nice to see you again! Got any more of that fancy wood you were shipping out last year?"
"Nah, I'm laid up with a hip injury. Tell you what, though. My cousin Eneri is coming in with a load sometime this week."
"Hmm. Not sure I can wait. Can we go and get it?"
"Only if you want the fines for avoiding the port duties and are willing to ship non-certified goods."
"Eh?"
"Howood exports have to go through the Export Office, have to be delivered by the harvesters, and have to at least 'pass through' the EO Warehouse. Otherwise the load doesn't get its certs, and you'll get nowhere near what its worth at the other end."
"Guess we wait, then. Need another beer?"

(another beer later)

Beep.
"Gus here. Hey Eneri! Got a buyer lined up for you. What? You're being chased around the forest by fangbeasts? Aren't those solitary? HOW many? Alright, alright. I'll round up a few buddies and head your way. The Capstan place. Got it. How long? Hold on."
"You got an air/raft, right?"
"Yeah."
"Want to come along and help secure that cargo? I'm sure we can cut a deal or something in exchange."
"Sure. You said something about fangbeasts?"
"Yeah. Bring guns."

 

[rust]

Well, here should be a long post about the Traveller economy from the
perspective of a planetary exporter and importer of goods, and an ex-
planation why the Traveller trade system completely fails when looked
at from that perspective - but something catapulted that long post into
the data nirvana instead of the forum.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I think was specifically to make them use the speculative trade system, rather than to adventure as such. ... But you can make a mint on spec trade with some starting capital,

The "Golden pair" flaw was not intentional. I think maybe GURPS plugged that flaw. I'm not sure though as haven't used that trade system.

From what I could get out of it, the GURPS rules in Far Trader are more complex than I have the patience or background to use, at least not without someone there to walk me through it a couple of times.

 

[rust]

From what I could get out of it, the GURPS rules in Far Trader are more complex than I have the patience or background to use, at least not without someone there to walk me through it a couple of times.

The description of the system is more complicated than the system actu-
ally is, in my view it is not more complicated than the Mongoose Travel-
ler counterpart in Merchant Prince. However, it also does not really solve
the "Golden Pair" problem, it is still easy to set up a situation where a tra-
de route is like a license to print money.

All the Traveller systems ignore the fact that under normal circumstances
no skill level and no characteristic of the spacer and his broker could con-
vince a producer to sell their goods for less than the cost to produce them
or the customer to buy the goods for an outrageous price, and the price
fluctuations - in Mongoose Traveller from 25 % to 400 % of the goods'
base price - of basic commodities would kill off any at least remotely plau-
sible planetary economy within months.

Just imagine the poor local company which has no idea whether the raw
materials it imports for the production of its goods will cost 1,000 Credits
or 4,000 Credits per ton next month, and how to set a price for the pro-
ducts if the price of the raw materials is a constantly changing mystery.

 

[BFalcon]

I used to, in Cyberpunk, have a spreadsheet which adjusted prices for the availability of various items (which a few players didn't like, but they were mainly the ones that wanted the rare toys). The main point is that I only updated it once in a while... and had the ability to make various things cheaper or more expensive as I saw it... which happened if players got through more of one item than was usual (the traders caught onto the increased demand and lower supply).

There's nothing to say that you need to keep the base price in Merchant Princes constant - for each catagory, you could throw in even more of a random element and have the prices prone to market forces - maybe put an unfavourable (to the players) DM onto the trading rolls at each end of the trading route per, say, 10 tons of goods bought from or shipped to the planet (by the players) previously in the past month, maybe two or more.

Failing that (or maybe as well as, if you're feeling mean), add a few unfavourable DM points per 50,000 credits of cargo shipped in the past few months to the Dangerous Goods rolls - simulating the criminal elements cottoning onto the players and trying all sorts of scams and outright piracy (sooner or later) to cash in on the players' Gold Pair scheme...

 

[DFW]

Okay, still a problem in GURPS.

They way I've dealt with it is by just using a bit of common sense. If the players find on of these "golden" opportunities, word word quickly gets around when they make planet fall with some cheap goods from planet A (to good of a deal). Starts a Tramp freighter stampede from where they just sold (planet B). By the time they can unload ships are already heading to where they just came from (carrying goods to be sold and buying what the PC's just brought in. Market evens out.

 

[rust]

By the way, there are occasional real world "golden opportunities", I knew
a couple of people who made a comfortable living by travelling between
Indonesia and Europe, buying cheap artworks there and selling them for
still comparatively low prices here. Today they serve the "India route",
with art and textiles, and still earn a lot more than I do.

 

[DFW]

By the way, there are occasional real world "golden opportunities", I knew
a couple of people who made a comfortable living by travelling between
Indonesia and Europe, buying cheap artworks there and selling them for
still comparatively low prices here. Today they serve the "India route",
with art and textiles, and still earn a lot more than I do.

My wife used to do the Bali --> U.S. thing with art work and such. She made good money importing small amounts and selling high here. But, it wasn't MILLIONS like can happen in Trav. The two things we are talking about are small scale and just a comfortable living. Also, they didn't have a multi-million credit ship with mortgage payments and the like.

 

[Jame Rowe]

By the way, there are occasional real world "golden opportunities", I knew
a couple of people who made a comfortable living by travelling between
Indonesia and Europe, buying cheap artworks there and selling them for
still comparatively low prices here. Today they serve the "India route",
with art and textiles, and still earn a lot more than I do.

Do I detect a hint of jealousy in that statement?
The same hint of jealousy that I felt when I read it? :wink:

 

[rust]

Do I detect a hint of jealousy in that statement?

Yes, indeed. On the other hand, those guys now have a very interesting
medical biography, especially since they started visiting India, and I am
not so willing to experience everything from dengue fever to shigellosis.