Slower than light Starship using Core Rules

Tom Kalbfus

Mongoose
avari_heavy_freighter_by_tomkalbfus-d8s2edo.png

Here is a slower than light starship, the Avari Heavy Freighter. Avaris are a group of interstellar nomads that live in these ships. The Avari Heavy Freighter is a 2000 dton ship with a cargo capacity of 70 d-tons, comparable to a free trader.
 
The Avari are "space gypsies" they live in their starships, and can travel in groups of up to 1000 of these starships. The reason they don't have jump drives, is they like to stay together as a community, because if they go into jump space, each ship is isolated in its own jump space from another. As you can see, this spaceship has 8 staterooms and a shuttle plus 70 tons of cargo space. All the crew positions in the starship are filled by family members. The shuttles are not only used to make planetfall but also to travel. Note that the shuttles are of the standard design, they are capable of accelerating at 3 g for one week and can thus keep up with the fleet when moving from ship to ship. The 70 tons of spare cargo room are used differently in each ship, in some ships they are gathering halls for community get togethers. The starships actually accelerate at 29.43 m/s², for game purposes, we'll assume that the shuttles can accelerate at 30 m/s², so they can catch up with the starships that are ahead of them. Since there are 8 staterooms in each ship, the community could have 8000 members, although the spare cargo space can be configured to make additional staterooms. As for how the Avari support themselves, they make investments on each planet they visit, if they travel 2 parsecs, the journey for them takes 2 years, but for the rest of the OTU it takes about 7 years. So lets say they earn a 10% annual return on their investments, over 7 years that is a 94.87% return, for them they earn a 39.60% Annual return because the journey only takes 2 years from their point of view, they practically double their investments for every trip of 2 parsecs, a round trip takes for them 4 years but for everyone else, they are not seen again until 14 years later!, their initial investment is quadrupled from the last time they were in system, and this is all from earning a rather safe 10% annual return on their investment, they buy stocks mostly. What do you think?
 
If they like to keep together, why not one 200k dton ship?

Maybe the 2k dton design is an old one, because they had limited financial resources to start with and gradualy expanded the size of the fleet. They would like to switch over to one big vessel, which would be much more suitable for their lifestyle, but there are some practical issues. They need to send the plans for the ship to a shipyard and contract it to build the vessel, for completion and delivery in however long it will take them to get there via sub-light travel.

* They need to contract a shipyard to build their new vessel for them. They can do this via x-boat communications so that's not a problem.
* The delivery date for the vessel should be equal to however long it will take them to get to the shipyard to take ownership. That could be decades away.
* They will need to transfer enough funds to pay for the vessel, but that means liquidating hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of credits in investments, but they can do this in phases over the time of the construction contract.

There are loads of scenario possibilities here. PCs could be go-betweens acting on behalf of the Avari and representing them in negotiations with the shipyard. Or they could be contracted by a representative of the Avari to arrive at the shipyard before the Avari arrive, maybe a year before, to ensure the ship will be ready for them.

"16 years ago we were contracted by the Avari to make arrangements for the costruction of a vessel. They are en-route and will take possession in 1 year's time. We've had reports of irregularities in the contruction and preparation of the vessel. We are hiring you to go to the shipyard at Glisten and ensure any difficulties are taken care of. Payment will be in the form of four 2k dton used sublight interstellar freighters."

You could run an episodic campaign. Play out the scenario where the players travel to the shipyard and contract the vessel to be built. Then roll 3 terms of character experience, age the characters 12 years and run the next phase when the Avari are due to collect.

Simon Hibbs
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
The Avari are "space gypsies" they live in their starships, and can travel in groups of up to 1000 of these starships. The reason they don't have jump drives, is they like to stay together as a community, because if they go into jump space, each ship is isolated in its own jump space from another. As you can see, this spaceship has 8 staterooms and a shuttle plus 70 tons of cargo space. All the crew positions in the starship are filled by family members. The shuttles are not only used to make planetfall but also to travel. Note that the shuttles are of the standard design, they are capable of accelerating at 3 g for one week and can thus keep up with the fleet when moving from ship to ship. The 70 tons of spare cargo room are used differently in each ship, in some ships they are gathering halls for community get togethers. The starships actually accelerate at 29.43 m/s², for game purposes, we'll assume that the shuttles can accelerate at 30 m/s², so they can catch up with the starships that are ahead of them. Since there are 8 staterooms in each ship, the community could have 8000 members, although the spare cargo space can be configured to make additional staterooms. As for how the Avari support themselves, they make investments on each planet they visit, if they travel 2 parsecs, the journey for them takes 2 years, but for the rest of the OTU it takes about 7 years. So lets say they earn a 10% annual return on their investments, over 7 years that is a 94.87% return, for them they earn a 39.60% Annual return because the journey only takes 2 years from their point of view, they practically double their investments for every trip of 2 parsecs, a round trip takes for them 4 years but for everyone else, they are not seen again until 14 years later!, their initial investment is quadrupled from the last time they were in system, and this is all from earning a rather safe 10% annual return on their investment, they buy stocks mostly. What do you think?

There are a few problems with your investment strategy is that:

(a) if they are trying to make money on the planet/system they are travelling TOO, they would need jump drives to get ahead of the fleet to make the investments.

(b) more than likely they would wind down their investments in the system they came from over a period of time so as to not destablize or affect their overall investment value (see C below for more on this).

(c) If they had a major investment(s) they would not be able to dump all of the investment in a single sale because that would destablize prices and cause the value of their assets to drop. Also smart investors would follow what the Avari are invest in and short the stocks around the timeframe they would normally get ready to depart a system, thus also influencing pricing in the market.

(d) In order to transfer the funds from system to system they'd have to use the Imperial banking system. Which can be done easily enough, but requires more of a formal investment process and strategy.

(e) depending on the system they were travelling to/from, it may not be sufficiently wealthy to absorb their investments, and thus they could only invest, say 10% of their overall funds which would greatly reduce their returns.

(f) and finally, your method doesn't allow for any sort of losses or managing of the portfolio's. Even passive investments (like S&P or NASDAQ tracking funds) require some work to maintain at times, so you can rebalance your portfolio as circumstances warrant.

For this to work you'd need a group of people who understood investments and who could easily access the markets they were going to be working in. Most likely they would have a trail of investments, both behind them and in the direction they were travelling.

These investors would need a jump-capable ship, but rendezvousing with the fleet wouldn't be too hard (aside from matching velocities, but since Traveller doesn't do that, you can just handwave that away - or they talk via radio and never physically meet, that gets around the velocity issue). The fleet would need ready access to capital, and thus the investors would need to be able to have a percentage available upon arrival to take care of necessary repairs, then enough to resupply, then re-invest.

The other issue is that this model really is vulnerable to an economic downturn. Investing in single systems could take decades, or a lifetime even, to recover from if there was a system, or worse, sector-wide depression of the local economy. That's where it would be better to have some Imperial investments that paid dividends (not to mention steady money coming in you can more or less count on every year). Getting access to it wouldn't be a huge issue, and if you spread your investments wider than a single system you could better handle local economic dislocations (not to mention you avoid putting all your nesteggs in a single basket).

Since you are calling them Gypsies, maybe they are artists and musicians and such, and when they arrive in a system they sell handmade art and clothes. Savvy people would also have agreements with distributors so that they could sell large quantities of their work and let it spread out to keep costs high. Even some things like weaving carpets by hand or say very high-end dresses can make you a killing in the right environment. Some ships might be full of weavers, others may have silk worms to make silk, some make pottery, etc, etc. And when they get to a system they put on like a renaissance fair of sorts. If they are in system for months then people going ahead of them would be able to let other systems know about their estimated arrival and people could schedule vacations or trips to see such a thing.
 
Goods that appreciate in value due to age, not necessarily through ageing. Perhaps wines age better when exposed to near light velocities.

Might be easier to invest in Imperium consols or Megacorp preferred stock or tax-free municipal bonds.
 
phavoc said:
There are a few problems with your investment strategy is that:

I don't really see that any of these issues are a real problem. Investors in London in the 18th and 19th century had no problem investing in ventures all across the globe, involving time delays of weeks, months or even years. If they stay in each system for 6 months to a year, that's plenty of time to communicate with other systems via the jump mail system and manage their investments across an entire subsector. Presumably they'd set up their investments to be managed by a trust on their behalf. Investors based on particular worlds, but with interests in ventures on other planets, must do this in the Imperium all the time. The only wrinkle is that these guys are incommunicado for years at a time between systems, so they take a particularly long term view.

They remind me a bit of the Outsiders in Larry Niven's Known Space stories.

Simon Hibbs
 
Being out of communication has its advantages, you have the rip van winkle scenario. For instance, what happens if the Virus hits during one particular voyage. The Avari arrive in system to find that Civilization has collapsed.

Also while this particular design allows for a constant acceleration trip of 2 parsecs, this ship could go further if it were allowed to coast in between, that's why I have maximum velocity listed. By dividing the distance in light years by the maximum velocity you can determine the duration of the trip between acceleration phases. Say for instance the trip is 5 parsecs, subtract 2 parsecs convert the remaining 3 parsecs to light years (3.26 light years per parsec) then divide that distance by the ship's maximum velocity. The gamma factor at maximum velocity is 3.542080192
divide the external duration time by the gamma factor, and that how much time the ship's occupants experience, add that to the acceleration/deceleration time for a 2 parsec journey and that's how long the trip lasts, the external time is how much time passes in the OTU during the trip, the ship board time is how much you age the characters.
 
simonh said:
phavoc said:
There are a few problems with your investment strategy is that:

I don't really see that any of these issues are a real problem. Investors in London in the 18th and 19th century had no problem investing in ventures all across the globe, involving time delays of weeks, months or even years. If they stay in each system for 6 months to a year, that's plenty of time to communicate with other systems via the jump mail system and manage their investments across an entire subsector. Presumably they'd set up their investments to be managed by a trust on their behalf. Investors based on particular worlds, but with interests in ventures on other planets, must do this in the Imperium all the time. The only wrinkle is that these guys are incommunicado for years at a time between systems, so they take a particularly long term view.

They remind me a bit of the Outsiders in Larry Niven's Known Space stories.

Simon Hibbs

Those with wealth invested in mercantile adventures far in advance of 18th century London. And many were successful, and just as many lost everything. Modern financial markets and strategies are only vaguely similar to what existed 200, or 2,000 years ago. Can it be done? Sure. But it could be disastrous to them too to take that sort of mindset. Futures, shorts, etc, none of those financial concepts existed back then. You invested in a cargo, hoped it made it's way to the destination and that your money made it's way back to you.

Yes, we both agree on casting their investments widely. And trusts are one option, but trusts really exist for two reasons - taxation and maintaining control of assets. The group doesn't necessarily require a trust to operate, and with jump drives they don't need to stay out of communication for years. Their path and speed are going to be very predictable so it would be easy to get close enough to give them a data dump and pick up the response on regular intervals.
 
Solomani666 said:
I think you'll need to add radiation shielding to this design.
It has an enormous fuel tank. Since there are 1000 of them, you spread them far apart, if any gets hit by a piece of space debris, that pretty much destroys the ship with the equivalent of a thermonuclear explosion, but that doesn't affect the other ships if they are far enough apart. One tactic is to employ "shield ships" they fly out ahead of the convoy in the most likely path of incoming debris. If one gets hit, you have a thermonuclear explosion, the people in the ship behind that shield ship then transfer to another ship, there ship then is remotely piloted forward to become a "shield ship" itself. "Shield ships" can carry expendable cargo, they just have to be flow unmanned, as they are the next to get hit by interstellar debris. That is my strategy, and one of the reasons I wouldn't employ a single 2,000,000 dton starship to carry them all, a piece of interstellar debris hits it, and a thermonuclear explosion is just as capable of destroying a 2 million dton starship as it is of destroying a 2000 dton starship. The Avari keep their assets spread out, and they are ready to transfer to other starships should any of their "shield ships" get blown up!

Of course their shield ships are insured. Space is mostly empty, so they pay a premium to an insurance company, and should any ship be destroyed, the insurance company pays for a replacement.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
That is my strategy, and one of the reasons I wouldn't employ a single 2,000,000 dton starship to carry them all, a piece of interstellar debris hits it, and a thermonuclear explosion is just as capable of destroying a 2 million dton starship as it is of destroying a 2000 dton starship. The Avari keep their assets spread out, and they are ready to transfer to other starships should any of their "shield ships" get blown up!

Just to be clear, I like the overall concept a lot. As my posts above show, I think it's got loads of gameable potential, but some of the issues around why they live together like this and won't use Jump technology could do with clarifying.

It seems enormously wasteful to risk an entire ship in a role like that. Another option would be to use a disc of ablative material. You bucarry it on the front of your vessel, then detach it and manoeuver it up ahead of the ship using a tug when you reach cruising speed.

I just don't really see how living in thousands of individual ships spread out far apart from each other constitutes living together. It doesn't seem consistent with the reasons for this lifestyle. If the ships are going to be apart from each other more than a week, you might as well use Jump drive. Anyway, if staying together is what's important, why not use one great big communal jump ship? That's what the K'kree do. I think there must be more to it that this. What do you think?

Also if you're spreading the ships out far apart, you'll need a lot of shield ships. You could string them out in a long line behind one shield ship, but you'd still run the risk that encountering a single large object could take out your entire fleet.


Simon Hibbs
 
simonh said:
Tom Kalbfus said:
That is my strategy, and one of the reasons I wouldn't employ a single 2,000,000 dton starship to carry them all, a piece of interstellar debris hits it, and a thermonuclear explosion is just as capable of destroying a 2 million dton starship as it is of destroying a 2000 dton starship. The Avari keep their assets spread out, and they are ready to transfer to other starships should any of their "shield ships" get blown up!

Just to be clear, I like the overall concept a lot. As my posts above show, I think it's got loads of gameable potential, but some of the issues around why they live together like this and won't use Jump technology could do with clarifying.

It seems enormously wasteful to risk an entire ship in a role like that. Another option would be to use a disc of ablative material. You bucarry it on the front of your vessel, then detach it and manoeuver it up ahead of the ship using a tug when you reach cruising speed.

I just don't really see how living in thousands of individual ships spread out far apart from each other constitutes living together. It doesn't seem consistent with the reasons for this lifestyle. If the ships are going to be apart from each other more than a week, you might as well use Jump drive. Anyway, if staying together is what's important, why not use one great big communal jump ship? That's what the K'kree do. I think there must be more to it that this. What do you think?

Also if you're spreading the ships out far apart, you'll need a lot of shield ships. You could string them out in a long line behind one shield ship, but you'd still run the risk that encountering a single large object could take out your entire fleet.


Simon Hibbs
Far apart is relative, lets say for arguments sake they are all within 16,000 km of each other, that is within the profile of a Size 10 planet, this is close enough for near instantaneous communication, one can have a telephone or video conversation between any two starships and not detect any delay. Lets say of the 1000 ships, 500 are inhabited and the other are shield ships. The shield ships are 1000 km ahead of the inhabited starships, something hits a shield ship, that ship is likely destroyed, but then whatever hit is also likely destroyed as well.
 
106 weeks of operation. For 8 people, that is 848 person-weeks of life support minus 32 person-weeks for a one month fairly standard life support capacity. 816 person-weeks life support and equipment takes about 5.5 dtons from the 70 ton cargo space at about 816,000Cr. They must be transporting some highly value dense trade goods in that 64.5 dton cargo bay. Add in they are trapped in a box as spartan as a free trader for a half year fully active in deep space compared to a two week trip by jump, there's going to be mental issues.
 
Reynard said:
106 weeks of operation. For 8 people, that is 848 person-weeks of life support minus 32 person-weeks for a one month fairly standard life support capacity. 816 person-weeks life support and equipment takes about 5.5 dtons from the 70 ton cargo space at about 816,000Cr. They must be transporting some highly value dense trade goods in that 64.5 dton cargo bay. Add in they are trapped in a box as spartan as a free trader for a half year fully active in deep space compared to a two week trip by jump, there's going to be mental issues.

That's not taking into account the time they spend cruising at near-C. They could be in transit for 4+ subjective years.

However these aren't humans, so the life support and psychological issues may not apply to the same extent. Also, perhaps they have an unusual technology or cultural product they create over that period and trade at the destination.

I'm nore concerned at using entire ships as protection, instead of cheap disposable shields specifically designed for the purpose. Being aliens doesn't really explain a decision like that.

Simon Hibbs
 
simonh said:
Reynard said:
106 weeks of operation. For 8 people, that is 848 person-weeks of life support minus 32 person-weeks for a one month fairly standard life support capacity. 816 person-weeks life support and equipment takes about 5.5 dtons from the 70 ton cargo space at about 816,000Cr. They must be transporting some highly value dense trade goods in that 64.5 dton cargo bay. Add in they are trapped in a box as spartan as a free trader for a half year fully active in deep space compared to a two week trip by jump, there's going to be mental issues.

That's not taking into account the time they spend cruising at near-C. They could be in transit for 4+ subjective years.

However these aren't humans, so the life support and psychological issues may not apply to the same extent. Also, perhaps they have an unusual technology or cultural product they create over that period and trade at the destination.

I'm nore concerned at using entire ships as protection, instead of cheap disposable shields specifically designed for the purpose. Being aliens doesn't really explain a decision like that.

Simon Hibbs
I didn't say the Avari were aliens, more like a religious sect, like the Amish, there are certain bits of technology they don't believe in, or perhaps they just seek to travel forward in time, and traveling near the speed of light was safer than going into a low berth and being placed in storage. Maybe they just go from place to place at near light speeds so they can utilize the effects of Einsteinian relativity. Look at the options:
They could go into low berths, but if 4000 of them do so, a certain percentage will end up dead, and they have to trust the person who will revive them to be competent.

They could drop in on a black hole, but that is very dangerous, and black holes are few and far between, not to mention the problem of getting torn up by extreme tidal forces, and all that in falling matter and radiation, but if you simply go near the speed of light, you get less of it. A black hole is after all a choke point, and simply going near the speed of light is not, there is no event horizon or extreme tidal forces to worry about, so near light speed travel is safer than going close to a black hole.
 
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