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sling!
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There is a thread buried a ways back (maybe 3-6 months that covers this discussion. Apparently, the sling was not a weapon to be trifled with. If i recall correctly the advent of warfare apparently made the weapon less desirable as you need more room to swing it around, and tighter formations don't allow for this, while a bow is still viable in such conditions. I'll see if I can search out and dig up the thread- but it got a few people riled up as I recall.
Composite repost from that thread:
Slings were the most effective ranged weapon, man for man, until the advent of the flintlock musket. Launch speeds up to 80 m/s (compare with a bow in the 60-70m/s mark) combined with much lower air resistance and greater mass (in the case of lead bullets, vastly greater) gave much greater impact at much greater ranges. And Goliath was not the only armoured warrior to regret meeting slingers:
Shattering the armour of a Greek hoplite was no mean feat.
However, the sling was fiendishly difficult to learn, and slingers could not fire dense volleys (because wind up time varies and slingers can't stand in tight units) so they were always in short supply and were always far outnumbered on battlefields by archers.
Both quotes from Xenophon's Anabasis Ch 3
Slings were the most effective ranged weapon, man for man, until the advent of the flintlock musket. Launch speeds up to 80 m/s (compare with a bow in the 60-70m/s mark) combined with much lower air resistance and greater mass (in the case of lead bullets, vastly greater) gave much greater impact at much greater ranges. And Goliath was not the only armoured warrior to regret meeting slingers:
But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered and that the Greeks in constantly increasing number were making their way into the camp, he brought up his slingers, who came from the Balearic Islands and numbered at least a thousand. By hurling a shower of great stones, they wounded many and even killed not a few of those who were attacking, and they shattered the defensive armour of most of them. For these men, who are accustomed to sling stones weighing a mina [~0.6kg], contribute a great deal toward victory in battle [...] In this way they drove the Greeks from the camp and defeated them. (Diodorus Siculus Book XIX. 109)
Shattering the armour of a Greek hoplite was no mean feat.
However, the sling was fiendishly difficult to learn, and slingers could not fire dense volleys (because wind up time varies and slingers can't stand in tight units) so they were always in short supply and were always far outnumbered on battlefields by archers.
If, then, we are to exclude them from all possibility of injuring us as we march, we must get slingers as soon as possible and cavalry. I am told there are in the army some Rhodians, most of whom, they say, know how to sling, and their missile will reach even twice as far as the Persian slings (which, on account of their being loaded with stones as big as one's fist, have a comparatively short range; but the Rhodians are skilled in the use of leaden bullets
But now the Asiatics had ceased to be dangerous with their sharpshooting. For the Rhodians could reach further than the Persian slingers, or, indeed, than most of the bowmen
Both quotes from Xenophon's Anabasis Ch 3
Dan True said:I take it the Longbow in RQ is then an ancient longbow, and not a late medieval English longbow then?
Because I seriously doubt a sling could ruin French Knights as the Longbows did at Agincourt.
Regardless, I don't think any of my players will ever pick up a sling.
- Dan
I had a player who choose to be a herdsman. And he is deadly with the sling. Stun location on a distant foe is deadly.
I take it the Longbow in RQ is then an ancient longbow, and not a late medieval English longbow then?
Because I seriously doubt a sling could ruin French Knights as the Longbows did at Agincourt.
I don't think longbows changed much.
The English longbows had a very low chance of harming a knight in full harness. They killed horses, shattered formations through impact, killed the 70-80% of the men who were not in full harness, and killed or wounded many knights simply by firing enough arrows that very low chances came up. A sling with a lead bullet would probably do more damage than a longbow, but a unit of slingers couldn't match the speed and density of fire.
Dan True said:I take it the Longbow in RQ is then an ancient longbow, and not a late medieval English longbow then?
Because I seriously doubt a sling could ruin French Knights as the Longbows did at Agincourt.
Regardless, I don't think any of my players will ever pick up a sling.
- Dan
I would. And so would a few other guys I know. I'd at least always keep a sling as back-up with almost any character I play. It would be realistic.
Well, that being said.
The knights of Agincourt didn't wear plate, so I think slings would have had about the same effect as the english longbows. Had they wore Italian Hardened Steel plate, or Gothic Plate. The arrows would only have been able to kill them in the arrow-slits, which would be impossible to hit. However flintlocks would do little damage to that sort of plate too anyway.
Also it was arguably not the longbow but the terrain and vanity of the french knights who won Agincourt, but any Britishman in here will yell at me for suggestion that.
Slings usefulness have been discussed. The TV show Deadliest warrior somehow think they are the worst weapon in history (firing one at an unarmoured man, they assumed proved deadly at one out of a thousand times).
Historical Records show that slings are tremendously useful, while a Shepherd's weapon, they could be used to kill lions at a distance.
According to Wikipedia:
The sling is mentioned by Homer and by many other Greek authors. The historian of the famous retreat of the Ten Thousand, 401 BC, relates that the Greeks suffered severely from the slingers in the army of Artaxerxes II of Persia, while they themselves had neither cavalry nor slingers, and were unable to reach the enemy with their arrows and javelins. This deficiency was later rectified when a company of 200 Rhodians, who understood the use of leaden sling-bullets, was formed. They were able, says Xenophon, to project their missiles twice as far as the Persian slingers, who used large stones.
So the Persian slingers could shoot farther than the bowmen of the greek (which were arguably regular bows, not longbows). And the Rhodians could shoot twice that distance. Now if we assume they weigh about the same as an arrow (which would be logical), that's a lot of Energy. Granted, the sling has less Penetration.
Also from Wikipedia, an average sling is between 61 and 100cm long. So that would increase the length of your arm by about double. Giving you a tremendous increase in the power of the sling.
I would probably play with slings the way they are, but giving them a bigger chance for a dramatic failure, since the chance of it going the wrong way is large, however that is probably because I don't know how to wield a sling properly.
I think pop-culture has really ruined our view of the sling, somehow everyone prefers a bow in pop-culture. Robin Hood, and Prince Legolas, are good examples of pansies with bows, while the only real known Slinger is David. You know the guy who killed an armoured dude twice his size with a sling.
Slings do have the downsize of having smaller projectiles, and thus deal 0 damage if blocked with even a buckler.
Oh and I do think the Longbow in the book is an English (or technically Saxon) Longbow. It says it's two meter long (which fits), and it deals the same damage as a Recurve bow, which is about right since those could reach the same draw speed.
Wikipedia Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_%28weapon%29
Deadliest Warrior Source: Gladiator Vs. Apache: http://www.clip4e.com/play_apache_vs_gladiator_deadliest_warrior_hq.htm (The kills from his sling comes at last). Notice, in the movie and their testing he used his sling wrong according to wikipedia.
Personally I love how Runequest is the first system since Mordheim to grasp how useful a weapon like the sling is.
Not the "full plate" we usually identify with, but Knights in 1415 will have had many plate parts, notably breastplates, full-face helmets and so on. But I disgress.Mixster said:The knights of Agincourt didn't wear plate
Hmm, I guess it doesn't make sense in my head because I think of small slings. But if those are the lengths of real slings, I can understand it. The power from such a sling would be great indeed...Mixster said:Also from Wikipedia, an average sling is between 61 and 100cm long. So that would increase the length of your arm by about double. Giving you a tremendous increase in the power of the sling.
PLus only nomad and primitive has it has a cultural weapon style. So civilised players will usually have a lower weapon skill - I guess this is to reflect how hard it is to learn.Mixster said:I would probably play with slings the way they are, but giving them a bigger chance for a dramatic failure, since the chance of it going the wrong way is large, however that is probably because I don't know how to wield a sling properly.
Yeah, that's right. Great system that is able to reflect details like that... I also reflects historical fighting types. In pre-roman times when armour was scarce, mostly of bronze and armies generally were smaller, the sling can have proven a very effective weapon indeed.Mixster said:Slings do have the downsize of having smaller projectiles, and thus deal 0 damage if blocked with even a buckler.
In medieval times where armour becomes more normal, especially in evolved padding underneath the armour, with larger armies able to soack up a large amount of fire the sling would have lost it usefullness compared to a mass-weapon like the bow.
Also, arrows and throwing spears can impale - and javelins can even pin shields... The reason the romans chose the pilum over the sling.
Great that realistic weapon combinations are reflected in the weapon system of RQ.
Also, you don't have the choice between different arrows that the bow gives.
- Dan
Slings suffer from the authors of early RPGs assuming that a shepherd's sling is the state of the art, and establishing a brain bug that they are worthless.
A sling's bullet is considerably heavier than an arrow. Furthermore, its smooth and has much less drag.
Slings were used through the medieval period. And they do have a variety of ammunition: they saw a resurgence in the 14-1500s when they were used to throw grenades. They could certainly hurl firebombs or more exotic projectiles.
A sling's bullet is considerably heavier than an arrow. Furthermore, its smooth and has much less drag.
Slings were used through the medieval period. And they do have a variety of ammunition: they saw a resurgence in the 14-1500s when they were used to throw grenades. They could certainly hurl firebombs or more exotic projectiles.
The sling was historically made redundant because of the difficulty of its use/training, a bow is easier to use and aim.
The bow of course went the same way when it was replaced by the crossbow and then the arquebus etc.
RQ doesn't really address the difficulty in training/learning different skills, but it may be a layer of complexity to far.
The bow of course went the same way when it was replaced by the crossbow and then the arquebus etc.
RQ doesn't really address the difficulty in training/learning different skills, but it may be a layer of complexity to far.
havercake lad
Banded Mongoose
As I think I mentioned on an earlier thread, Sling improvised ammo is easy to find and big advantage of sling and javalins is that a weilder can still use a shield easily.
duncan_disorderly
Mongoose
A sling is also easier to carry and/or conceal than a longbow, which may be important if you are trying to sneak into an enemies camp, or move through dense forest...havercake lad said:As I think I mentioned on an earlier thread, Sling improvised ammo is easy to find and big advantage of sling and javalins is that a weilder can still use a shield easily.
duncan_disorderly said:A sling is also easier to carry and/or conceal than a longbow, which may be important if you are trying to sneak into an enemies camp, or move through dense forest...havercake lad said:As I think I mentioned on an earlier thread, Sling improvised ammo is easy to find and big advantage of sling and javalins is that a weilder can still use a shield easily.
And if you are playing in a world where weapons are outlawed, it is technically impossible to outlaw the sling without also outlawing clothing.
superc0ntra
Mongoose
I've practiced some slinging and it doesn't take long to throw around 100m consistently but aim is a completely different story. I'm happy as long as I can hit the ground in some general direction.
superc0ntra said:I've practiced some slinging and it doesn't take long to throw around 100m consistently but aim is a completely different story. I'm happy as long as I can hit the ground in some general direction.
How are you throwing? Overhand, Underhand or Swinging it above your head?
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