SIZ and mass (RQ2)

[ryhopewood]

Hi there

I would like some guidance on relating SIZ to mass / size for the purpose of designing new creatures in Rune Quest 2.

Page 7 of the core rules states "Size represents the average of an adventurer's mass." Under the Brawn skill on page 36, we learn that "As a mass equivalent, 1 point of SIZ equals, roughly, 5 kilograms."

All well and good until you get to the Creatures chapter. The horse on page 175 has an average SIZ of 25. Using the rule-of-thumb previously stated then this is around 125 kg.

According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse), this would be a very small horse - probably a Shetland pony. Wiki states that "The size of horses varies by breed, but also is influenced by nutrition. Light riding horses usually range in height from 14 to 16 hands (56 to 64 inches, 142 to 163 cm) and can weigh from 380 to 550 kilograms. Larger riding horses usually start at about 15.2 hands (62 inches, 157 cm) and often are as tall as 17 hands (68 inches, 173 cm), weighing from 500 to 600 kilograms. Heavy or draft horses are usually at least 16 to 18 hands (64 to 72 inches, 163 to 183 cm) high and can weigh from about 700 to 1,000 kilograms."

On this basis, I have either interpreted the relationship under the Brawn skill incorrectly (a strong possibility), it is wrong, or the creature stats for the horse are way out of whack.

I would appreciate comments.

Thanks in anticipation,

Ian

 

[GoingDown]

Hmm. In old runequest SIZ / mass relation table was not linear. This is probably the case with MRQ2 too.

 

[andyl]

Well there are a number of types of horse.

In the Bronze and Iron Age the average horse was much smaller - probably less than 13 hands high.

Think about the Mongolian Horse - 12 - 14 hands high. Similar horses would have been used by the Celts and the Norse.

Now it might be that in Fronela you might want larger horses, to help the feel of knights on horseback.

However even at 12-14 hands the SIZ is way off. Having said that I would expect that if I knew enough about other creatures they might be off a bit too. Looking at Wikipedia Brown Bears (Avg SIZ 26) range from 70 to 780 kilograms and Lions (Avg SIZ 19) can weigh up to 250 Kg.

 

[ryhopewood]

Hmm. In old runequest SIZ / mass relation table was not linear. This is probably the case with MRQ2 too.

I think you are right. Malleus Monstrorum, a supplement for COC, gives a SIZ to weight comparison chart that supports your point.

For example:

SIZ Weight (kg)

16 100 - 109
20 141 - 151
24 200 - 218
...
32 400 - 436

However, the horse is still a little light.

Ian

 

[GoingDown]

I did take a look of my old RQ3 book, and it tells me this:

SIZ Weight (kg)

1 5
2 6-11
3 12-17
4 18-23
5 24-35
6 36-41
7 42-49
8 50-54
9 55-58
10 59-64
11 65-70
12 71-76
13 77-83
14 84-91
15 92-99
16 100-108
17 109-118
18 119-129
19 130-140
20 141-153
21 154-167
22 168-182
23 183-199
24 200-217
25 218-237

Siz 25 horse is indeed still quite small. I think that traditional Finnish-breed horse weights about 500 kg (that's the one we have), which in RQ3 siz should be around 34.

EDIT. So probably the curve is more steep in MRQ2 than in RQ3. I would say that riding horse should have weight of 300-400 kg, and work horses around 400-600 kg.

 

[ryhopewood]

I did take a look of my old RQ3 book, and it tells me this:

SIZ Weight (kg)

1 5
2 6-11
3 12-17
4 18-23
5 24-35
6 36-41
7 42-49
8 50-54
9 55-58
10 59-64
11 65-70
12 71-76
13 77-83
14 84-91
15 92-99
16 100-108
17 109-118
18 119-129
19 130-140
20 141-153
21 154-167
22 168-182
23 183-199
24 200-217
25 218-237

Siz 25 horse is indeed still quite small. I think that traditional Finnish-breed horse weights about 500 kg (that's the one we have), which in RQ3 siz should be around 34.

EDIT. So probably the curve is more steep in MRQ2 than in RQ3. I would say that riding horse should have weight of 300-400 kg, and work horses around 400-600 kg.

Thanks for the table - very useful as it fills in the gaps from COC and ties in with the SIZ stats from the rest of the mythos table.

If the curve is steeper then could the developers of RQII give us the SIZ table that they used for the creature statistics, please? I think it is essential for developing other creatures and useful when converting monsters from other systems.

 

[GoingDown]

I created new table for MRQ2 which seems to fit quite nicely. With this table, horse will weight at minimum (siz 20) 208 kg, and maximum 566 kg, which is about right. This table seem to work for human-sized creatures, as well as bigger ones.

Brown bear will be 170 - 730 kg
Dark troll 73 - 400 kg
Average dragon will be about 9 tons.
Giants 401 - 15874 kg.

SIZ	Weight in kg
1	0-5
2	6-10
3	11-16
4	17-23
5	24-29
6	30-37
7	38-45
8	46-53
9	54-62
10	63-72
11	73-83
12	84-95
13	96-107
14	108-121
15	122-136
16	137-152
17	153-169
18	170-187
19	188-207
20	208-229
21	230-252
22	253-277
23	278-304
24	305-334
25	335-366
26	367-400
27	401-437
28	438-477
29	478-520
30	521-566
31	567-617
32	618-671
33	672-730
34	731-793
35	794-862
36	863-936
37	937-1015
38	1016-1102
39	1103-1195
40	1196-1295
41	1296-1404
42	1405-1521
43	1522-1648
44	1649-1785
45	1786-1933
46	1934-2092
47	2093-2265
48	2266-2451
49	2452-2652
50	2653-2869
51	2870-3103
52	3104-3357
53	3358-3630
54	3631-3926
55	3927-4245
56	4246-4589
57	4590-4961
58	4962-5363
59	5364-5797
60	5798-6266
61	6267-6772
62	6773-7319
63	7320-7910
64	7911-8547
65	8548-9236
66	9237-9980
67	9981-10784
68	10785-11651
69	11652-12588
70	12589-13600
71	13601-14693
72	14694-15874
73	15875-17149
74	17150-18526
75	18527-20013
76	20014-21619
77	21620-23353
78	23354-25227
79	25228-27250
80	27251-29435
81	29436-31794
82	31795-34343
83	34344-37095
84	37096-40068
85	40069-43279
86	43280-46746
87	46747-50490
88	50491-54535
89	54536-58902
90	58903-63620
91	63621-68714
92	68715-74216
93	74217-80159
94	80160-86576
95	86577-93508
96	93509-100993
97	100994-109078
98	109079-117809
99	117810-127238
100	127239-137423

 

[TrippyHippy]

I have always gone by the Imperial unit rule of thumb, that each unit of SIZ equates to roughly one Stone of mass.

 

[d(sqrt(-1))]

I think that under earlier versions of RQ, the rule was that +8 SIZ = doubled mass. You can see this in the RQ 3 table above, SIZ 8 = 50 kg, SIZ 16 = 100 kg, SIZ 24 = 200 kg. So if you enlarge something by 2, you should add 24 to its SIZ, etc. If you just have 1 SIZ = 1 unit, you run into problems for larger sized creatures (like horses+).

Of course this might not be the assumption in MRQ2.

Mark

 

[superc0ntra]

I created new table for MRQ2 which seems to fit quite nicely. With this table, horse will weight at minimum (siz 20) 208 kg, and maximum 566 kg, which is about right. This table seem to work for human-sized creatures, as well as bigger ones.

Brown bear will be 170 - 730 kg
Dark troll 73 - 400 kg
Average dragon will be about 9 tons.
Giants 401 - 15874 kg.

SIZ	Weight in kg
1	0-5
2	6-10
3	11-16
4	17-23
5	24-29
6	30-37
7	38-45
8	46-53
9	54-62
10	63-72
11	73-83
12	84-95
13	96-107
14	108-121
15	122-136
16	137-152
17	153-169
18	170-187
19	188-207
20	208-229
21	230-252
22	253-277
23	278-304
24	305-334
25	335-366
26	367-400
27	401-437
28	438-477
29	478-520
30	521-566
31	567-617
32	618-671
33	672-730
34	731-793
35	794-862
36	863-936
37	937-1015
38	1016-1102
39	1103-1195
40	1196-1295
41	1296-1404
42	1405-1521
43	1522-1648
44	1649-1785
45	1786-1933
46	1934-2092
47	2093-2265
48	2266-2451
49	2452-2652
50	2653-2869
51	2870-3103
52	3104-3357
53	3358-3630
54	3631-3926
55	3927-4245
56	4246-4589
57	4590-4961
58	4962-5363
59	5364-5797
60	5798-6266
61	6267-6772
62	6773-7319
63	7320-7910
64	7911-8547
65	8548-9236
66	9237-9980
67	9981-10784
68	10785-11651
69	11652-12588
70	12589-13600
71	13601-14693
72	14694-15874
73	15875-17149
74	17150-18526
75	18527-20013
76	20014-21619
77	21620-23353
78	23354-25227
79	25228-27250
80	27251-29435
81	29436-31794
82	31795-34343
83	34344-37095
84	37096-40068
85	40069-43279
86	43280-46746
87	46747-50490
88	50491-54535
89	54536-58902
90	58903-63620
91	63621-68714
92	68715-74216
93	74217-80159
94	80160-86576
95	86577-93508
96	93509-100993
97	100994-109078
98	109079-117809
99	117810-127238
100	127239-137423

Humans will be quite large with a 13-14 average size.

 

[GoingDown]

Humans will be quite large with a 13-14 average size.

In MRQ2 version, SIZ roll is 2d6 + 6, which gives average of 12. But true, the curve might be little bit too steep...

 

[d(sqrt(-1))]

In MRQ2 version, SIZ roll is 2d6 + 6, which gives average of 12. But true, the curve might be little bit too steep...

??? Average of 13...


Mark

 

[superc0ntra]

Humans will be quite large with a 13-14 average size.

In MRQ2 version, SIZ roll is 2d6 + 6, which gives average of 12. But true, the curve might be little bit too steep...

7+6=13

 

[GoingDown]

Humans will be quite large with a 13-14 average size.

In MRQ2 version, SIZ roll is 2d6 + 6, which gives average of 12. But true, the curve might be little bit too steep...

7+6=13

Oh true... sorry. I created new table, but I need to take a look little bit more how it works.

 

[ryhopewood]

I did take a look of my old RQ3 book, and it tells me this:

SIZ Weight (kg)

1 5
2 6-11
3 12-17
4 18-23
5 24-35
6 36-41
7 42-49
8 50-54
9 55-58
10 59-64
11 65-70
12 71-76
13 77-83
14 84-91
15 92-99
16 100-108
17 109-118
18 119-129
19 130-140
20 141-153
21 154-167
22 168-182
23 183-199
24 200-217
25 218-237

Siz 25 horse is indeed still quite small. I think that traditional Finnish-breed horse weights about 500 kg (that's the one we have), which in RQ3 siz should be around 34.

EDIT. So probably the curve is more steep in MRQ2 than in RQ3. I would say that riding horse should have weight of 300-400 kg, and work horses around 400-600 kg.

Alternatively the SIZ for the horse in the MRQ2 core rules could be wrong? In the RQ (3rd edition) rulebook I've just obtained off ebay, the horse has a SIZ of 32, which is consistent with a weight of 400 - 435 kg.

 

[GoingDown]

Alternatively the SIZ for the horse in the MRQ2 core rules could be wrong? In the RQ (3rd edition) rulebook I've just obtained off ebay, the horse has a SIZ of 32, which is consistent with a weight of 400 - 435 kg.

Comparison of average sizes of certain beasts between MRQ2 and RQ3:

Beast    MRQ2  RQ3
Broo     16    15-16
Bear     26    24-25
Dragon   65    70
Griffin  28    35
Horse    25    32
Lion     19    26
Troll    19    18-19
Wyrm     35    35

It seems that in small (<20) beasts, there is no so much difference. But in bigger ones, MRQ2 ones seem to be smaller than RQ3 ones, except for Wyrm.

Within this info, I would say that MRQ2 has little bit steeper progression on SIZ/mass relation than in RQ3.

 

[ryhopewood]

Alternatively the SIZ for the horse in the MRQ2 core rules could be wrong? In the RQ (3rd edition) rulebook I've just obtained off ebay, the horse has a SIZ of 32, which is consistent with a weight of 400 - 435 kg.

Comparison of average sizes of certain beasts between MRQ2 and RQ3:

Beast    MRQ2  RQ3
Broo     16    15-16
Bear     26    24-25
Dragon   65    70
Griffin  28    35
Horse    25    32
Lion     19    26
Troll    19    18-19
Wyrm     35    35

It seems that in small (<20) beasts, there is no so much difference. But in bigger ones, MRQ2 ones seem to be smaller than RQ3 ones, except for Wyrm.

Within this info, I would say that MRQ2 has little bit steeper progression on SIZ/mass relation than in RQ3.

Well researched!

Maybe the RQ3 progression applies to say 16 (i.e. +8 SIZ double mass) and then steepens (say +8 SIZ triple mass). Not sure how you calculate the SIZ points in between - what formula are you using?

 

[GoingDown]

Maybe the RQ3 progression applies to say 16 (i.e. +8 SIZ double mass) and then steepens (say +8 SIZ triple mass). Not sure how you calculate the SIZ points in between - what formula are you using?

In previous chart, I was using progression so that SIZ weight is 1,08*previous SIZ weight + 5 kg, rounded normally to integer.

So (I calculate the upper limits)
SIZ 2 upper limit = 10
SIZ 3 upper limit = 10*1,08 + 5
etc...

But it did give little bit too steep curve in <20 SIZ area... and if the multiplier is smaller than that, then the SIZ 25 (average horse) is too light.

 

[GoingDown]

OK, new table. At least it seems to be ok for humans, horses and dragons.

Edit. Slight modification to table

Siz  From    To
1	 0	-	5
2	 6	-	11
3	 12	-	17
4	 18	-	23
5	 24	-	29
6	 30	-	35
7	 36	-	41
8	 42	-	47
9	 48	-	53
10	54	-	59
11	60	-	67
12	68	-	75
13	76	-	84
14	85	-	99
15	100	-	115
16	116	-	133
17	134	-	154
18	155	-	176
19	177	-	202
20	203	-	230
21	231	-	261
22	262	-	296
23	297	-	335
24	336	-	379
25	380	-	426
26	427	-	478
27	479	-	533
28	534	-	593
29	594	-	658
30	659	-	722
31	723	-	785
32	786	-	848
33	849	-	915
34	916	-	988
35	989	-	1066
36	1067	-	1150
37	1151	-	1240
38	1241	-	1337
39	1338	-	1441
40	1442	-	1553
41	1554	-	1673
42	1674	-	1801
43	1802	-	1940
44	1941	-	2088
45	2089	-	2248
46	2249	-	2419
47	2420	-	2603
48	2604	-	2801
49	2802	-	3013
50	3014	-	3241
51	3242	-	3486
52	3487	-	3749
53	3750	-	4031
54	4032	-	4334
55	4335	-	4660
56	4661	-	5010
57	5011	-	5386
58	5387	-	5789
59	5790	-	6223
60	6224	-	6688
61	6689	-	7188
62	7189	-	7725
63	7726	-	8302
64	8303	-	8921
65	8922	-	9586
66	9587	-	10300
67	10301	-	11068
68	11069	-	11892
69	11893	-	12777
70	12778	-	13727
71	13728	-	14748
72	14749	-	15844
73	15845	-	17022
74	17023	-	18286
75	18287	-	19645
76	19646	-	21103
77	21104	-	22670
78	22671	-	24352
79	24353	-	26159
80	26160	-	28100
81	28101	-	30185
82	30186	-	32423
83	32424	-	34828
84	34829	-	37410
85	37411	-	40183
86	40184	-	43162
87	43163	-	46361
88	46362	-	49797
89	49798	-	53486
90	53487	-	57449
91	57450	-	61706
92	61707	-	66277
93	66278	-	71186
94	71187	-	76459
95	76460	-	82122
96	82123	-	88204
97	88205	-	94736
98	94737	-	101752
99	101753  -   109287
100  109288  -   117379

 

[Rurik]

Is there some kind of formula or rule to the table?