Should two-handed weapons be weakened in Conan 2nd?

[Sutek]

I don't really see the damage as a problem, though. If I made a comparison of a Broad vs. a Dagger, no one would blink that the Broad is 2 times as effective before PA, and about 6 times as effective with +10 from PA in sheer damage. In fact, the dagger can never force an MD while the Broad can.

Does anyone else see the Irony here?

I said that too, or at least someone did. Why lower 2 handed weapons, when all that's going to ultimately do is make 1 handed weapons and light weapons appear too powerful. A battle axe should do more damage than a short sword or dagger.

Plus, I think it can be noted that the proportions of the damage increased symetrically between D&D and Conan. I suck at numbers, but isn't 1-8pts shooting up to 1-10pts the same incremet as 2-12pts shooting up to 2-20pts? Someone do the ratio ther and see if they went up nearly the same ammount percentage wise.

There are many Roleplay reasons not to use a 2hander...

1. Within city limits, they should be illegal for everyone but the Nations soldiers (actual army) and the Town guard.

2. Cramped locals whether dense foliage or within tombs/ruins.

3. It's asking for a fight, one should be treated as such, i.e. the peasants running in fear, bravos picking unnecessary fights, problems with the local militia or guards, etc. etc.

4. They draw attention, whether you want it or not.

5. They can be taken, removed, destroyed, lost, etc. so if you build a character around one you are one dimensional and therefore easily thwarted.

6. Should be the first target of archers, they are easier to hit when compared to those with a shield.

7. They can't be used in a grapple, if you have lots of mooks, have them grapple the 2hander on occasion.

Reputation can be a bitch. (lol) If the villagers see "Mister Giant Axe" coming, knowing that he regularly lops heads off with it. they go to ground and shoot him from hidden spots. Either that or gang up on him so that he's surrounded, or just toss a net on him and tangle him up.

Now having said that, I'll think about the #'s for a reducing the Top end 2handers, dropping the die down will mean some kind of boost elsewhere.

I'm curious to see if the amount that they went up by is reletive from D&D to Conan. Anyone??

 

[Netherek]

The 2handers went up 1-2 die steps, depending on the weapon. The weapons doing 2d10 are definate 2 steps, the Tulwar is 2 steps as well.

One thing I did notice though is that Martial One Handers are almost straight 1d10, while the 2handers are all over the board. So there is some merit to lower the Bardich, with the Great and Tulwar though they do require an exotic or familiarity so I don't know about those.

I could see lowering the Greatsword and allowing it to be finessed, and give it piercing/slashing. This would hold up to historical Greatsword methodology as the style has about as many thrust as slashing maneuvers.

If the Bardich is lowered to 2d8, maybe a boost to AP or Crit multiplier. It is supposed to be deadly when you deliver a good strike.

If Greatsword is lowered, Tulwar must drop as well, though I could see increasing it's AP by one for the trade off.

 

[Baduin]

By the way, why is the tulwar two-handed weapon in Conan RPG?

The real tulwar is very much one handed cavalry weapon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talwar
http://therionarms.com/sold/com004.html
http://arms2armor.com/Swords/tulwar1.htm

This was a powerful blade, because it is rather broad, because good ones were made of excellent steel and very sharp (XVIII and XIX century western cavalry sabres were often unsharpened to save on wear and tear) but mostly because of the way in which it was used.

It usually has rather small hilt, which makes normal fencing difficult. It is used to make powerful drawing swings from shoulder (not flicks from wrist or chops from elbow, as many of the western blades). It can easily cut a head or an arm in half. It also doesn't require any greatl strength, but rather speed.

In game terms, it could use Dex modifier to damage.

 

[Netherek]

Based on pictures, fluff, and mechanics, I think their Tulwar is based off of the sword used by Ahzeem in Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves.

Just a guess...

 

[Baduin]

If you need a curved two-handed blade, I would suggest Dacian falx. It has one curious characteristics - it is sharp on the concave, that is inner, side

The tulwar from the rules can be renamed falx, if so desired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx

 

[Trodax]

I said that too, or at least someone did. Why lower 2 handed weapons, when all that's going to ultimately do is make 1 handed weapons and light weapons appear too powerful. A battle axe should do more damage than a short sword or dagger.

Eh... what? Who suggested otherwise?

Plus, I think it can be noted that the proportions of the damage increased symetrically between D&D and Conan. I suck at numbers, but isn't 1-8pts shooting up to 1-10pts the same incremet as 2-12pts shooting up to 2-20pts? Someone do the ratio ther and see if they went up nearly the same ammount percentage wise.

1d8 (4,5 average) raised to 1d10 (5,5 average) = 22% increase
2d6 (7 average) raised to 2d8 (9 average) = 29% increase
2d6 (7 average) raised to 2d10 (11 average) = 57% increase

 

[Netherek]

That's quite a ratio increase, and one that isn't held up anywhere else within the weapons.

While we're mentioning weapon inconsistencies, the warhammer should probably be increase to d8 and AP dropped to 6. Doing so would bring the warhammers performance in line with everything else. As it stands now, it's absolutely crap unless you have nothing else that will penetrate the armour. If you can't penetrate with it or can with something, you're better off with any other Martial Weapon.

The Bec-de-Corbin should be changed as well, in no way is the damage pontential of a staff equal to one of those (not counting crits).

I'll play around with it and post some #'s, we'll see how it turns out. If they stay balance, i.e. not bring the 1handers to the front.

 

[Netherek]

Now let's do another comparison, Broad and Shield vs. Greatsword, and 2 Broads vs Sword and Board, using 2d8 for the Greatsword.

Assume a soldier meeting his counterpart with your hero armed with a Greatsword or 2 Broads, and his foe is armed with a Broadsword and Lg. Shield. They each have 18 str, Wpn focus and Specialization, Parry, and Power Attack. This will give each a BAB +15, Parry bonus +12, and we'll change armour for each case...

Case 5:
Assume the opponents are unarmoured. (edit)

No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/15) for a mean 12.75 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 13.225
2b has a base 70% (30+30+5+5, or 15/15/20/20) for a mean 7.35

PA 6 damage.
G has a 45% (35+10, or 14/19) for a mean 10.35 (yet a 30 top, 23 average hit)
B/S has a 55%(40+15, or 13/18 ) for a mean 9.25 (yet a 22/17.5 per hit)
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 3.3
G PA at -6 has a 25%(20+5, or 17/20) for a mean 7.5 (yet 36/29 a hit)

PA 10
G has a Base 30% (25+5, or 16/20) for a mean 8.1 (yet a 34/27 per hit)
B/S has a base 25% (20+5, or 17/20) for a mean 5.375 (yet 26/21.5 a hit)
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 4.1
G PA at -10 has a 10%(5+5, or 20/20) for a mean 3.7 (yet 44/37 a hit)

The #'s remain consistent, and closer to each other...


Case 6:
Assume Mail Shirt, Brigandine Coat, and a Helmet, DR9

RAW
No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/15) for a mean 6 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 3.565
2b has a base 70% (30+30+5+5, or 15/15/20/20) for a mean 1.785

PA 6
G has a 45% (35+10, or 14/19) for a mean 6.3 (yet a 21 top, 14 average hit)
B/S has a 55%(40+15, or 13/18 ) for a mean 4.675 (yet a 13/8.5 per hit)
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 1.5
G PA at -6 has a 25%(20+5, or 17/20) for a mean 5 (yet 27/20 a hit)

PA 10
G has a Base 30% (25+5, or 16/20) for a mean 6 (yet a 29/20 per hit)
B/S has a base 25% (20+5, or 17/20) for a mean 3.125 (yet 17/12.5 a hit)
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 2.3
G PA at -10 has a 10%(5+5, or 20/20) for a mean 2.8 (yet 35/28 a hit)

#'s follow the same pattern, and 2b's don't outperform the G so I can agree here. Some tweaking to the upper 2handers probably should be done, having 2d8 the upper limit definately remains consistent without having the the 2handers quite so dominate.

 

[Trodax]

Netherek, I haven't double-checked your numbers, but it looks good. So in this last analysis with a greatsword doing 2d8, what we see is that the greatsword is your best bet against armored foes, while you're actually slightly better off with shield+broadsword or 2 broadswords against an unarmored opponent. That is exactly how I'd like it to be!

Honestly, I think a greatsword with a lowered damage to 2d8 would still be a very good choice in combat, but it would even out things a little bit against the other fighting styles.

 

[Netherek]

Yah, I am gonna have to agree on this one.

Drop the Greatsword, Bardich, and Nordhimeir Double-axe to 2d8 and up there AP by one.

Lower the Bill, Tulwar, and Talwar to 2d6 with an AP up by 1.

Flamberge I'd leave it as is, it's requires an Exotic Proficiency w/o any familiarity.

Hell, the Bill is so versatile, I don't know if it really needs the AP increase...

 

[Trodax]

I looked through your numbers and some things look weird. First, how are you calculating damage for the 2 broadswords? It looks way too high to me (in fact, I think you've doubled it).

Assume the opponents are unarmoured.

No PA.
2b has a base 70% (30+30+5+5, or 15/15/20/20) for a mean 14.7

What I get is: 0.35*(5.5+4+2)+0.35*(5.5+2+2) = 7.35

PA 6 damage.
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 6.6

0.10*(5.5+4+2+6)+0.10*(5.5+2+2+6) = 3.3

PA 10
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 6.6

0.10*(5.5+4+2+10)+0.10*(5.5+2+2+10) = 4.1

So you're in a pretty bad place if you try fighting with two broadsword against someone with a shield. That's not surprising, though, two broadswords should suck heavily because of the -4 penalty. You'd be doing much more average damage with broadsword+short sword (but that has the disadvantage that you'd need to buy Weapon Focus/Specialization twice).

Also, in your example against DR 9 armor, I'm not sure how you get the numbers that you do. If I'm reading everything correctly, neither the greatsword nor the broadsword should penetrate armor in this example. With that in mind, here is the calculations I get:

Assume Mail Shirt, Brigandine Coat, and a Helmet, DR9

RAW
No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/15) for a mean 5.652 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 3.565
2b has a base 70% (30+30+5+5, or 15/15/20/20) for a mean 3.57

Should be:
G: 0.75*(9+6+2-9) = 6
B/S: 1.15*(5.5+4+2-9) = 2.875
2b: 0.35*(5.5+4+2-9)+0.35*(5.5+2+2-9) = 1.05

And the examples with PA are also incorrect. This ends up with the greatsword having quite a clear advantage against heavy armor, even armor that it fails to penetrate (against DR 8 armor, the greastword would have a huge advantage, since it penetrates but the broadsword does not).

 

[Trodax]

I redid the last example (with 2d8 for greatsword) just to show that it's not only against heavy armor that the greastword has an advantage.

Assume the opponents have a leather jerkin (DR 4).

No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/15) for a mean 11.25 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 10.925
2b has a base 70% (30+30+5+5, or 15/15/20/20) for a mean 5.95

PA 6 damage.
G has a 45% (35+10, or 14/19) for a mean 9.45
B/S has a 55%(40+15, or 13/18 ) for a mean 8.525
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 2.9
G PA at -6 has a 25%(20+5, or 17/20) for a mean 6.75

PA 10
G has a Base 30% (25+5, or 16/20) for a mean 7.5
B/S has a base 25% (20+5, or 17/20) for a mean 4.875
2B has a 20% (5+5+5+5, or 20/20/20/20) for a mean 3.7
G PA at -10 has a 10%(5+5, or 20/20) for a mean 3.5

So as soon as you start putting some padding on that target, the greastword gains an advantage. (This is not surprising since fewer, more hard-hitting attacks gain an advantage as soon as armour starts to subtract anything from damage.)

Again, trying to wield those two broadswords both sucks and blows.

 

[Netherek]

You're right on the 2sword numbers, I forgot to halve the % when getting the average per round.

I'll edit my post to reflect that.

Using 2b's is horribly ineffective, the same problem would occur when using a shield as a weapon. Not sure that's a good thing, seems a little too out of proportion...

Since the TWF w/ Light weapon got a boost, lets see what happens with a boost in general. Assume that TWF w/ 1h suffers -2 to iterative attacks instead of -4.

Assume the opponents are unarmoured, still assuming 2d8 Greatsword.

No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/15) for a mean 12.75 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 13.225
2b has a base 110% (40+40+15+15, or 13/13/18/18 ) for a mean 11.55

PA 6 damage.
G has a 45% (35+10, or 14/19) for a mean 10.35 (yet a 30 top, 23 average hit)
B/S has a 55%(40+15, or 13/18 ) for a mean 9.25 (yet a 22/17.5 per hit)
2B has a 30% (10+10+5+5, or 19/19/20/20) for a mean 4.95

They would still suck, I don't know...

 

[Netherek]

Should be:
G: 0.75*(9+6+2-9) = 6
B/S: 1.15*(5.5+4+2-9) = 2.875
2b: 0.35*(5.5+4+2-9)+0.35*(5.5+2+2-9) = 1.05

You forgot to assume the Minimum of 1, though if you don't use that rule then you are indeed correct. I use them so the figures I post reflect that.

 

[Trodax]

Using 2b's is horribly ineffective, the same problem would occur when using a shield as a weapon. Not sure that's a good thing, seems a little too out of proportion...

I think it's meant to suck to wield two broadswords. As sbarrie said earlier, doing that (or even worse; two warswords!) makes you look like a tool. Two shortswords would give a much better result:

No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/16) for a mean 12.75 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 13.225
2 ss has a base 150% (50+50+25+25, or 11/11/16/16 ) for a mean 14.25

Note however that using PA with the shortswords doesn't work by the RAW, and that they will have more trouble against armor (they do have the ability to finesse, though). Still, against unarmored foes they're the best bet; I don't think that's too bad.

 

[Trodax]

You forgot to assume the Minimum of 1, though if you don't use that rule then you are indeed correct. I use them so the figures I post reflect that.

Ah, right, I forgot about that. I do indeed use that rule as well.

 

[Netherek]

While I definately agree that you are a tool with 2B's (I don't allow 2 Warswords), it seems a little counter intuitive when you use a shield as a weapon. Though maybe there should be shield fighting feats instead of upping the One hand Two weapon combat. That's the only reason I have some reluctance...

 

[Netherek]

I just did a calculation for an Arming and Shield using finesse for Case 6...

Assume Dex 18 so the hit # is the same, consider the Arming finessing the Greatsword.

Case 6:
Assume Mail Shirt, Brigandine Coat, and a Helmet, DR9

RAW
No PA.
G has a base 75% (50 + 25, or 11/15) for a mean 6 pts a round
B/S has a base 115% (70+45, or 7/12) for a mean 3.565
2b has a base 70% (30+30+5+5, or 15/15/20/20) for a mean 1.785
A/S has a base 115%(45(25)/40(5),or 7(16)/12(20)), for a mean 6.085

So, it looks like finesse evens out against the can-openers. That's pretty impressive for a simple mechanic. I love this system.

 

[Clovenhoof]

We're just starting our campaign this weekend, but looking at the stats, I noticed that compared to the SRD, most weapons' damage dice have been augmented by a single step (like d6 -> d8).

The Greatsword, however, as been increased two steps (2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10), and though the Bardiche has no real equivalent in D20, it is extremely powerful for such a cheap weapon.

So, we'll have to see how it works out in the game; my players don't have much experience with D20 systems, so they may or may not find out they get more than they pay for with two-handers.
For the time being, I'll leave it as it is, but I am prepared to cut those two-handers back one step if they turn out to be too Über.

However, I have already resolved not to use the Massive Damage rule as written in the core book. A threshold of 20 points seems to be rather a joke, a high-level Barb or Soldier should net that damage on almost every hit. Maybe with a higher threshold and/or lower save DC and setting the target to -1HP rather than Dead.

 

[Oly]

However, I have already resolved not to use the Massive Damage rule as written in the core book. A threshold of 20 points seems to be rather a joke, a high-level Barb or Soldier should net that damage on almost every hit. Maybe with a higher threshold and/or lower save DC and setting the target to -1HP rather than Dead.

I'd think carefully about just dropping it.

The very real danger of combat is a part part of the feeling of the Conan games. Unlike D&D there's not that feeling that certain combats are "safe" for PCs to get involved with.

Plus from the PCs point of view Massive Damage gives them the ability to heroically slay a powerful enemy by spending a fate point to get the maximum damage from a weapon. Although the threshold seems easy to reach most of the time I've seen it come into play has been when the PCs have choosen to do it against their enemy at the end of an adventure.

If a PC is dropped by the rule then they should still have fate points to help them get out of the problem (and probably drop them into another problem, far more interesting than just killing them).

Try it with the rule as it is and see how you find it.