Ship's Troops and Berthing Spaces

[ottarrus]

So, I know that I grouse about berthing spaces for troops aboard military vessels in Traveller a lot. There really is a reason for that, and I think I've found a video that explains it reasonably well.
This is a short 7 min. vid showing a USMC platoon saddling up to exercise with Norwegian troops. I'd like you guys to observe just how stacked up these poor schmucks are in berthing spaces on a Marine transport.
Now imagine how cramped and claustrophobic it would be in those tight spaces with no 'outside'. There is no deck to go out on, no water well, no nothing. Add to that all the extra equipment those Marines are lugging along... A minimum of two environment suits per man [a vacc suit and Battle Dress rig], two weapons per man [a High Energy heavy weapon (F/PGMP) and a Gauss rifle], plus vehicles.
This illustrates why I think troops need more space aboard Traveller's ships.
But YTUMV and all that....

 

[Limpin Legin]

But YTUMV and all that....

Did you mean YMMV because I'm not aware of YTUMV.

Now imagine how cramped and claustrophobic it would be in those tight spaces with no 'outside'. There is no deck to go out on, no water well, no nothing. Add to that all the extra equipment those Marines are lugging along...

Good point. I just assume that passengers have access to hologram/video for training and entertainment, and ship's computer for library data and 3D maps.

 

[ottarrus]

YTUMV is a take on OTU or YTU.
OTU = Official Traveller Universe [aka Charted Space and canon sources]
YTU = Your Traveller Universe [how you view Traveller, the Imperium, etc. in your games]
YTUMV = Your Traveller Universe May Vary

 

[ottarrus]

Did you mean YMMV because I'm not aware of YTUMV.


Good point. I just assume that passengers have access to hologram/video for training and entertainment, and ship's computer for library data and 3D maps.

There's a lot a computer can do, but what it cannot do is push-ups
Ground troops need to exercise their skills in real dirt to keep and maintain proficiency. Failing that, they need open spaces where they can train. In addition, they [and the spacehands aboard] need a gym and rec spaces that don't smell like weapon cleaner.
Troops aboard an LHA at least have the flight deck, the fantail, and the water well to get outside and work. Troops aboard a Tigress have no such luxury and they have to twice the amount of gear to train for.

 

[Limpin Legin]

There's a lot a computer can do, but what it cannot do is push-ups
Ground troops need to exercise their skills in real dirt to keep and maintain proficiency.

Yes, I was humouring my own almost deliberate oversight, RAW as well.
Could try brainstorming along the lines of ASAHP (As Soon As Humanly Possible). Or take on it with ASASP (As Soon As Sophontly Possible). Both can be considered takes on As Far As Humanly Possible.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Could get exercise bikes, exercise walkers/runners and VR headsets to help keep maintaining proficiency, perhaps?

An exercise walker would be an exoskeleton, or stripped down version of a combat walker, with the sophont's limbs strapped into the walker, and limb weights can vary to increase/decrease task resistance/encumbrance and gravity effects.

Ideas are maybe possible without taking up too much space.

 

[Condottiere]

The Ponies probably have some strong opinions on this.

I like to joke about the Terran Express, but then, I tend to think that the Confederation has two speed, rapid deployment on available starwarships, and dedicated battle barges that take a while to deploy.

Usually, the primary considerations are space and life support (operating costs).

 

[MasterGwydion]

There's a lot a computer can do, but what it cannot do is push-ups
Ground troops need to exercise their skills in real dirt to keep and maintain proficiency. Failing that, they need open spaces where they can train. In addition, they [and the spacehands aboard] need a gym and rec spaces that don't smell like weapon cleaner.
Troops aboard an LHA at least have the flight deck, the fantail, and the water well to get outside and work. Troops aboard a Tigress have no such luxury and they have to twice the amount of gear to train for.

Isn't this what Training Facilities are for?

 

[Sigtrygg]

There should be a way to repurpose the empty jump fuel tanks as marine exercise areas...

or shove them out of the airlock safe in the jump bubble and jog on the hull in their armour.

 

[AndrewW]

Add to that all the extra equipment those Marines are lugging along... A minimum of two environment suits per man [a vacc suit and Battle Dress rig], two weapons per man [a High Energy heavy weapon (F/PGMP) and a Gauss rifle], plus vehicles.
This illustrates why I think troops need more space aboard Traveller's ships.

Their equipment at least should be stored in an armoury (which needs more space per marine then the regular ships crew).

 

[MasterGwydion]

There should be a way to repurpose the empty jump fuel tanks as marine exercise areas...

or shove them out of the airlock safe in the jump bubble and jog on the hull in their armour.

Dual-use areas. I agree that these are common in real life, but sadly lacking in Traveller rules.

 

[Condottiere]

Dedicated fuel/cargo containers present an alternative, allowing space to be switched between uses without a lengthy remodelling of the ship’s interior. Containers can also be built in such a manner as to retain accessibility, including accessways, hatches and heavy-duty partitions that make them part of the ship rather than a component that must be added or removed as necessary. Swapping from fuel tankage to cargo space requires little more than flushing the tanks, then loading them with cargo as needed.

 

[ottarrus]

But nobody wants to train in the fuel tanks, smelling as they do. While hydrogen as a gas has no smell, liquefying it as part of the fueling process imparts a safety smell to alert crews when there is a leak. You don't want liquid hydrogen spilling all over the place. So there is a smell that impregnates the metal and sealants of the fuel tanks. And I submit to you that most sophonts probably don't want to be doing push ups and squat thrusts in it.
And if you do use the fuel tanks as training space, you have to move everything to train with... chair, tables, projection equipment, everything... into and out of that fuel tank every freaking time you use it.
Certainly cargo spaces can be used as they empty and that's useful for things like PT and whatnot, but that cargo space is usually filled with cargo. A warship's cargo space is planned and configured very tightly... so much tonnage for this department aboard and so much for that department. What's more, cargo containers aren't emptied uniformly or evenly. On any given military ship there is a half a can here, a quarter can there, and an almost empty one on the other side of the bay behind all that crap there. And unless the troops commander insists vigorously, the Materials Handling Specialists [aka 'deck apes'] are not moving crap around just so the 'passengers' have room to grunt in.
Ask any sailor you know if I'm right about this.
The plain fact is that 'common room' in the deckplans barely covers mess space and leaves almost nothing for training space or maintenance space. And using a fuel tank or a cargo can is an insufficient expediency when warships stay in space months at a time.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

But nobody wants to train in the fuel tanks, smelling as they do. While hydrogen as a gas has no smell, liquefying it as part of the fueling process imparts a safety smell to alert crews when there is a leak. You don't want liquid hydrogen spilling all over the place. So there is a smell that impregnates the metal and sealants of the fuel tanks. And I submit to you that most sophonts probably don't want to be doing push ups and squat thrusts in it.

They are not most sophonts, they are marines, they will do as they are told.
Plus its good protective force training

And if you do use the fuel tanks as training space, you have to move everything to train with... chair, tables, projection equipment, everything... into and out of that fuel tank every freaking time you use it.

You kave lots of marines to do that, not a problem.

Certainly cargo spaces can be used as they empty and that's useful for things like PT and whatnot, but that cargo space is usually filled with cargo. A warship's cargo space is planned and configured very tightly... so much tonnage for this department aboard and so much for that department. What's more, cargo containers aren't emptied uniformly or evenly. On any given military ship there is a half a can here, a quarter can there, and an almost empty one on the other side of the bay behind all that crap there. And unless the troops commander insists vigorously, the Materials Handling Specialists [aka 'deck apes'] are not moving crap around just so the 'passengers' have room to grunt in.
Ask any sailor you know if I'm right about this.

Forget the sailors, ask the marines.

The plain fact is that 'common room' in the deckplans barely covers mess space and leaves almost nothing for training space or maintenance space. And using a fuel tank or a cargo can is an insufficient expediency when warships stay in space months at a time.

And there is always the hull...

 

[Condottiere]

I assume the fuel is hydrogen.

Does hydrogen smell?

 

[Limpin Legin]

If you invert the ship's gravity, everything would gravitate upwards, and the ceiling could then be used as spare space to accommodate for performing any military exercises and manoeuvres that the troops had in mind.

 

[ottarrus]

I assume the fuel is hydrogen.

Does hydrogen smell?

Hydrogen in it's natural form does not.
But Traveller ships use liquefied hydrogen for fuel... hydrogen that's been concentrated and super-cooled to a liquid state. This concentrates all the impurities picked up in the random gas giant you scooped the fuel from, which are then mostly removed in the purification process. The fuel must maintain its super-cooled state to maintain its liquid form and is highly dangerous to unprotected people, especially in the closed environment of a starship. And you really don't want that crap in your L/S system.
Therefore it's reasonable to presume that a negative and unique smell is introduced into the gas that automatically tells the crew that the L-Hyd is leaking somewhere. That's a common safety procedure in gas companies today.

 

[Geir]

Even methane doesn't smell - they add that odor to natural gas for safety reasons. Ammonia on the other hand... yuck, and bad for your eyes, skin, lungs... yuck.

 

[Condottiere]

If you had a fast enough purifier, you could purify the fuel while feeding it to the jump drive.

Or, if raw fuel is water, then balance that off with increased maintenance costs and time.