captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Can we get back to pirates, 18th century banking and sensors ? Heck, even Gravitational propagation would do.......
Ships - player owned... or not
- Thread starter zace66
- Start date
rust said:
But the problem in question is that of ship-jumping/piracy ... which, by definition, takes place in the part of the Imperium governed directly vy the Imperium.
Even with Russian organised crime, it possible to trace their activities across national borders, it just becomes more difficult ... but not impossible ... and things like the Patriot Act and Extraordinary Rendition (i.e. kidnapping people from countries where you don't have any legal rights or legal case) seem to exist in the 3I. It makes it plain in a number of sources that the 3I comes down hard, for example, on those who carry out trade wars.
So difficult does not equal impossible.
Phil
The Scoundrel book discusses piracy in rather good detail. I have to say that I agree with Phil in that it could be tracked. It comes down to how badly the trackers want the info and how much red tape they are willing to wade through with some governments of course. Certain systems have no government structure or star ports even if they are Imperial systems. A pirate in one of those systems has nothing to fear except the occasional patrol by the navy but prospects would also be rather slim in those systems as well.
The original question for the thread was about ship ownership though wasn't it?
The core rulebook does talk about this issue. Page 138 in a box with the title "Skipping out on debts". You can overly complicate the issue with a lot of explanations about the "age of sail" and banking in the 18th century etc etc, or you can just go with what's in the rulebook and play the game.
I prefer to just play the game and concentrate on the story I am trying to create with the help of my players.
The original question for the thread was about ship ownership though wasn't it?
The core rulebook does talk about this issue. Page 138 in a box with the title "Skipping out on debts". You can overly complicate the issue with a lot of explanations about the "age of sail" and banking in the 18th century etc etc, or you can just go with what's in the rulebook and play the game.
I prefer to just play the game and concentrate on the story I am trying to create with the help of my players.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Duroon said:
Which is fine. A discussion of "how does mail get delivered in the 3I" isn't a model for how the game should run. In the game, unless it comes up, its: "you have mail".
The main reason I like to poke around at why things might work is
1. to have a mindset ready to answer off the wall but sensible player questions ("so.....where do I send my mortgage payment to this month given that I am in Aslan space ?"), but mainly
2. for what it suggests about adventure elements.
("well, for starters, it has to be an imperial certified payment to go by aslan xboat to an imperial xboat system, and the imperial treasury & banking contact is at the embassy in the next system, which is surrounded by a crowd waving torches and pitchforks; or you could use a local Aslan transfer house, which will charge for the privilege, which is on top of the payment, because the bank doesn't cover that, plus, it'll have to be in specie, becasue...well the empire isn't popular right now. OR, you can use a favor from another trader and have him carry it back....I'm sure you can rely on Trader Butterbur not to screw it up.)
Or, as you point out, if all that matters is the players having skipped, use the rules. I especially like the point that they are located on a nat 12, no matter what, no matter what bonuses they have. That adds up pretty damn fast.....
Still, even with the rules, some thought as to how the players might be at risk for this, and what kind of system produces this is helpful if the inevitable player whining starts....
Additional: also, BTW, the rules mentioned don't actually answer the question either; they cover what happens when you steal or default. So, How do you pay your bills ? Do mortages have to be delivered to the home planet ? If so, how ? If not, what does one do ? Can you expect to be arrested by repos when you have eight payments en route ? If not, why not ? Discuss..... 8)
Of course not.aspqrz said:
I mentioned it because I think it makes "pirate hunting" and "skip tra-
cing" a bit more interesting to have to deal with less than cooperative
governments and bureaucracies and their various kinds of corruption
and "red tape".
Unless the Third Imperium has a good reason to ignore or even sup-
port the criminals (as the rest of the seafaring world did in the con-
flict with Spain mentioned by Captain Jack), those criminals who are
stupid enough to repeat their crimes will get caught in the end.
In my eyes the most successful real world pirate ever was the one who
captured just one ship, that of a Moghul princess on her pilgrimage to
Mekka, became instantly rich beyond his wildest dreams - and retired
immediately. :lol:
Luke, Thanks for describing how you arrived at your figures. Since pirate bases would not likely be right out in space, or on surfaces of natural bodies - passive detection of this sort doesn't seem directly applicable. Solar bodies provide plenty of heat sink, and priate bases are likely to be well protected from visual and thermal sensors.silburnl said:
For sensors - this leaves detection by starship/ground traffic... Unfortunately, even at 15 times 10 million miles distance detection range, more than 100,000 sensors could be required to detect a ship within a Neptune sized orbit.
My prior post only refered to the volume of space and its relationship to MGT sensors at 'limited' level of detail (which I should have stated the first time). MGT rules don't prohibit something[/]i being detected past 50,000 km - but the detail is 'minimal'. For ranges hundreds and thousands of times farther - that's basically useless given the massive amount of data on other 'minimal' detections (like trying to apply significance to individual grass blade shadings in the area the size of Europe from the Hubble telescope). Hiding ship traffic could be as simple as using covering ships to confuse sensors only capable of minimal detail (even to the point of manipulating heat signature).
The page you refered to (here) specifically addresses the idea that sneaking up on one's enemy in spaceship combat is generally nonsense - and MGT pretty much agrees with this premise, as do I. (Excepting, of course, using comet tails, covering ships and exotic handwavium shields).
---- (This section refers mostly to the web site...)
While I basically agree with the page, there are some issues I'll attempt to address - though I doubt my skills are up to it (in other words I'll probably screw this up
) I've enjoyed Winchell's website over many years - but any well read layman would question many of his assertions and many professionals would have a good laugh. The same can be said for what I write - like Winchell, I'm a computer guy (programmer and analyst) - neither of us are experts in these areas.Unfortunately, the Dr. Schilling (a UNC astrophysisist grad) link is no longer available - so there is no source for the equations with constants and reduced terms that are based on assumptions that most likely limit the validity of the equations. The equation for 'engines blaring' can easily fit any result - i.e. varying N the range can be made out as 0 to infinity. I'm not saying the equations are wrong in general (they look like blackbody simplifications to me) - but they are likely based on perfect situations that the RW doesn't come anywhere near.
Consider, if one were to use the 'facts' from this page, then there is no reason why we would be discovering new moons via probes - we would have long since detected them already from their heat signatures (incident radiation, albedo, tidal heating, etc.) against the chill of space. Furthermore, current 'complete' sky surveys being done in about four hours would depend on what is being surveyed and how 'complete' is defined. For instance, WMAP (samples cosmic microwave background radiation), in an L2 orbit, takes 6 months for a survey. And, at its 13 arcminute resolution, even the engines blazing spacecraft may be just a variation in one dot's data - largely inseperable from the background 'noise' of the universe. Detailed scanning requires time - any sensor does - to accummulate enough energy to generate data - especially at the extreme distances being discussed.
Addressing stealth from passive detectors (specifically thermal) - heat isn't as hard to 'hide' as the page suggests. It assumes a simplistic emission of thermal radiation...
Ships produce a lot of heat, but efficient drives will absorb most of that heat and store it as other forms of energy. For stealth (and other reasons) heat from the ship may be dumped into space in a highly directional form (lasers). Getting rid of waste heat is important anyway, so systems and technologies would be fairly standard. As to supposing that this radiation is released in a '60 degree' cone - or 1/10 spherical coverage - for reaction drives and passively radiated energy, ok - but it is simply absurd for active thermal stealth designs.
Standard Traveller ships use 'gravitic' propulsion. Using methods mentioned on the web site (and alternate Traveller drives) would be drastically more 'detectable' from a greater distance. There are still options, especially for hiding from in-system sensors. For example, using gases to absorb IR emissions (CO2, etc.) - while obscuring more distant sources - would make detection harder. Out-system sensors inherently suffer from speed propagation delays that reduce the value of their data during real time conflicts, and must be more numerous as the cube of their distance.
Least I forget - this page doesn't address countermeasures (blinding sensitive long range sensors).
---- (end section)
All that said - pirate bases can and will be detected by technology and by human nature. Based on current tech - doing this by sensors would be extremely costly (and is not practicle with existing systems). For MGT I would assume certain systems would have much larger scale detection systems with massive computing facilities involving coordinated platforms (seperated at Lagrange points, etc. capable of using large baseline techniques, etc.) that would give very good coverage of stellar traffic many AUs out - but still at the mercy of STL detection and communications (light takes ~8 minutes per AU to travel). Many systems would not have this sort of system. Using jumps to mask operations, pirate bases could readily act as stop-overs to launder ships, merchandise and monies. Suspecting this activity wouldn't really narrow down which system - and using only shipboard sensors could make searching nearby systems very difficult.
Of course, there is nothing to say that future tech wouldn't so far exceed our own that these arguements are mute. From that standpoint, one sensor platform could be enough to assume detection of any scale object within a solar system or anywhere in the universe for that matter.
(Boy, this thread might be getting to the point where even an Age of Sail Captain might have difficulty navigating it...)
The fact that there is generally a financial trail as evidence of illegal activities, especially that can lead to the successfull prosecution of crime - doesn't carry much merit given the huge number of organized and unorganized crime activities going on all the time.
As many have stated in different ways - even the guarantee of getting caught does not prevent people from commiting crimes.
Certainly paper trails are a great weapon in fighting crime. With enough people and resources to pursue them the human world might be a friendlier place. But paper trails, like any other form of evidence, do not stop crimes from occuring in the first place. And, paper trails tend to trail off at some borders and disappear easier than bodies, murder weapons or news about the potential dangers of cell phones... (and a good bonfire can take out a lot of paper/computer evidence - even physical evidence if the forensics isn't good enough).
While many high profile criminals/organizations have been 'caught' (and prosecuted) this way - many more have not. Pursuit does not have to begin with the paper trail - often it begins with allegations and evidence of physical activities (bodies, etc.) that lead to the suspicision of questionable activities possibly backed up by financial records.
And some activities leave no financial record behind unless the participants foolishly choose to do so.
The fact that there is generally a financial trail as evidence of illegal activities, especially that can lead to the successfull prosecution of crime - doesn't carry much merit given the huge number of organized and unorganized crime activities going on all the time.
As many have stated in different ways - even the guarantee of getting caught does not prevent people from commiting crimes.
Certainly paper trails are a great weapon in fighting crime. With enough people and resources to pursue them the human world might be a friendlier place. But paper trails, like any other form of evidence, do not stop crimes from occuring in the first place. And, paper trails tend to trail off at some borders and disappear easier than bodies, murder weapons or news about the potential dangers of cell phones... (and a good bonfire can take out a lot of paper/computer evidence - even physical evidence if the forensics isn't good enough).
While many high profile criminals/organizations have been 'caught' (and prosecuted) this way - many more have not. Pursuit does not have to begin with the paper trail - often it begins with allegations and evidence of physical activities (bodies, etc.) that lead to the suspicision of questionable activities possibly backed up by financial records.
And some activities leave no financial record behind unless the participants foolishly choose to do so.
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
Someone else touched on this: Interest rates and down payment requirements should reflect the risk that mortgage companies have. If one out of ten ships is lost to pirates, destroyed by competitors, lost in miss jumps, disappears when someone skips out on payments, or whatever else might happen, this should be reflected in the mortgage costs.
Perhaps someone with better math skills and more interest in these details could work backwards and determine what the greatest % of loss is possible with the profits the mortgage company is making. Don't forget to add some costs for bounty hunters and such for those ships you try to recover and never do. For simplicity, lets assume that any recovery cost are charged to the mortgagee or perpetrators property is seized and sold to pay expenses for ships actually recovered.
Back to the OT.
For standard operation.
IMTU, there is a branch of the 'Imperial Bank' at every Imperial star port. You can make your payment there. If you are not going to be at a location with a branch office, you should make early payment(s) before heading off into the uncivilized areas of space.
Customs can check the ships 'paperwork' and ownership which includes records of payment. If you can not produce proof that you have made payments, the ship can be impounded until proof is obtained or you make all back payments.
I'm not sure where the thread is, but I have mentioned before that one possibility is that transponders are built with a capability for mortgage companies to update them. Mortgage companies may require you to report in person within certain intervals and if payments are up to date, a representative visits the ship inspecting their investment and updates the transponder. If payments are missed, your transponder will indicate such.
Another thing I have discussed previously is that mortgage companies, depending on their size, reach, and the risks they are willing to incur, may require the ship to operate within a certain area and not wander large distances from a branch office.
Perhaps someone with better math skills and more interest in these details could work backwards and determine what the greatest % of loss is possible with the profits the mortgage company is making. Don't forget to add some costs for bounty hunters and such for those ships you try to recover and never do. For simplicity, lets assume that any recovery cost are charged to the mortgagee or perpetrators property is seized and sold to pay expenses for ships actually recovered.
Back to the OT.
For standard operation.
IMTU, there is a branch of the 'Imperial Bank' at every Imperial star port. You can make your payment there. If you are not going to be at a location with a branch office, you should make early payment(s) before heading off into the uncivilized areas of space.
Customs can check the ships 'paperwork' and ownership which includes records of payment. If you can not produce proof that you have made payments, the ship can be impounded until proof is obtained or you make all back payments.
I'm not sure where the thread is, but I have mentioned before that one possibility is that transponders are built with a capability for mortgage companies to update them. Mortgage companies may require you to report in person within certain intervals and if payments are up to date, a representative visits the ship inspecting their investment and updates the transponder. If payments are missed, your transponder will indicate such.
Another thing I have discussed previously is that mortgage companies, depending on their size, reach, and the risks they are willing to incur, may require the ship to operate within a certain area and not wander large distances from a branch office.
I'm not sure of 'official' ways of handling this - he's my version...
Given the limits of jump range/time - and the large amount of capital investments ships represent - I've allowed for payments to be recorded upto a quarter late... with the assumptions of a central sector bank and branch locations at every system on an x-boat route. The farthest one could be in a sector is within twelve J-4s - so allowing for the fact that the bank would be located more centrally, even with less than optimal x-boat routes - payments should have enough time to be recorded in the central bank within 6 months. Otherwise, the loan goes into default status...
No late fees - the bank is actually guaranteed its monthly amount upto default via insurance - however, there is no insurance for default - hence banks would be anxious to recover ships...
Once on a defaulters list - skip tracers don't really follow ships - jump makes this impractical in most cases - no, they wait to see if one shows up in their neck of the woods.
Removing defaulter status can take some time - as this must be verified recorded at the central bank and lists updated (special situations can be aranged based on travel plans). Normal default reversal requies 6 month up front payment - though there is no penalty.
This also means repos can be picked up for just this 6 months downpayment and continuation of the loan for the outstanding balance (i.e. original monthly payments - this is not a new loan spread over 40 years).
There are no penalties because of nature of 'mortgage insurance' - and ultimate desire to just get paid and make interest. Given the risks and high credit amounts, ships don't have regular insurance. Historically, I describe this as being too risky - thus no precedant was established...
Of course, IMTU, this means piracy, skipping and other loses are quite rare - but then there are a lot of ships to spread the burden across. This is offset by government borrowing for military ship construction and associated benifits to banks all to encourage an active interstellar economy.
(I don't run 'Banking in the Far Future' campaigns - no RW style 'interstellar stock markets' - just simplified investments with simple interest, etc.)
Given the limits of jump range/time - and the large amount of capital investments ships represent - I've allowed for payments to be recorded upto a quarter late... with the assumptions of a central sector bank and branch locations at every system on an x-boat route. The farthest one could be in a sector is within twelve J-4s - so allowing for the fact that the bank would be located more centrally, even with less than optimal x-boat routes - payments should have enough time to be recorded in the central bank within 6 months. Otherwise, the loan goes into default status...
No late fees - the bank is actually guaranteed its monthly amount upto default via insurance - however, there is no insurance for default - hence banks would be anxious to recover ships...
Once on a defaulters list - skip tracers don't really follow ships - jump makes this impractical in most cases - no, they wait to see if one shows up in their neck of the woods.
Removing defaulter status can take some time - as this must be verified recorded at the central bank and lists updated (special situations can be aranged based on travel plans). Normal default reversal requies 6 month up front payment - though there is no penalty.
This also means repos can be picked up for just this 6 months downpayment and continuation of the loan for the outstanding balance (i.e. original monthly payments - this is not a new loan spread over 40 years).
There are no penalties because of nature of 'mortgage insurance' - and ultimate desire to just get paid and make interest. Given the risks and high credit amounts, ships don't have regular insurance. Historically, I describe this as being too risky - thus no precedant was established...
Of course, IMTU, this means piracy, skipping and other loses are quite rare - but then there are a lot of ships to spread the burden across. This is offset by government borrowing for military ship construction and associated benifits to banks all to encourage an active interstellar economy.
(I don't run 'Banking in the Far Future' campaigns - no RW style 'interstellar stock markets' - just simplified investments with simple interest, etc.)
