Ships - player owned... or not

[GamerDude]

(as a note, gravity travels at the speed of light. Just sayin').

Uh oh. (hastily trying to slam lid on can of worms...) Please refer to this... (Not you EDG!)

(Bad Doctor. Very Bad Doctor. ).

My humble thanks go out to folks like BP, aspqrz, Capt Jack, Galadrion, Cosmic Gamer, rust.

I don't have the scientific background to discuss many of the things y'all and EDG get hip deep into. My background is electronics, computers, health care, game systems, and such. I was one of those science&math nerds in HS but I never got to carry it beyond there.

The ability participate in discussions like this without being made to feel like the token moron is very nice and I appreciate it. I don't have to be right all the time with my opinions/statements taken as gospel, all I ask is that I'm treated they way others want me to treat them.

So thanks, and I'm sending it to you on gravity wave so it arrives instantly.

 

[Galadrion]

So... why isn't this model applied to the OTU? The communications part of it seems to fails miserably - the current X-boat system seems largely useless for the "common man" and have very limited extent. Are there "packets" zipping around all over the OTU?

Of course there are - it's even enshrined in the basic rulebook: look at the rules for private ships carrying mail. That's essentially the packet system right there.

Why couldn't the same be done for banking data? Maybe not any ships, but even if you had a cycle of seven ships carrying such data jumping between two systems at a rate of one per day, you could potentially have an informational time lag of only one day instead of one week. That would make it easier for banks to to track loans and stuff, wouldn't it?

It can - and I would venture to guess that the vast majority of private mail contracts would be for banks and for multi-systematic corporations without their own interstellar transport branch. However, the time lag will still be one week, that being the minimum transit time. The difference will lie in the granularity of information flow - all of the information off of a given packet will be seven to eight days old, rather than seven to thirteen. The average age of transmitted information would drop from ten days to seven and a half, but the quickest transmission would still be that seven-day minimum.

That being said, this would be how multi-system banks would operate - they would use mail packets to disseminate official data, and banking information would spread at the speed of the mail packet ships - much as it did during the Age of Sail, again.

 

[captainjack23]

So... why isn't this model applied to the OTU? The communications part of it seems to fails miserably - the current X-boat system seems largely useless for the "common man" and have very limited extent. Are there "packets" zipping around all over the OTU?

Of course there are - it's even enshrined in the basic rulebook: look at the rules for private ships carrying mail. That's essentially the packet system right there.

Why couldn't the same be done for banking data? Maybe not any ships, but even if you had a cycle of seven ships carrying such data jumping between two systems at a rate of one per day, you could potentially have an informational time lag of only one day instead of one week. That would make it easier for banks to to track loans and stuff, wouldn't it?

It can - and I would venture to guess that the vast majority of private mail contracts would be for banks and for multi-systematic corporations without their own interstellar transport branch. However, the time lag will still be one week, that being the minimum transit time. The difference will lie in the granularity of information flow - all of the information off of a given packet will be seven to eight days old, rather than seven to thirteen. The average age of transmitted information would drop from ten days to seven and a half, but the quickest transmission would still be that seven-day minimum.

That being said, this would be how multi-system banks would operate - they would use mail packets to disseminate official data, and banking information would spread at the speed of the mail packet ships - much as it did during the Age of Sail, again.

(whispers: "I think he's left the room...")

 

[Galadrion]

Technically, it was speed of gravitation - essentially instantaneous over any range the wave itself was detectable over.

(as a note, gravity travels at the speed of light. Just sayin').

Has that been established now? The last time I looked into the matter (some time back, I confess), gravity propagating at c was a widely-regarded theory, but not definitely established, nor without contention.

 

[rust]

Hmmm ... I always thought that the x-boats, connecting the "main ports",
plus the scout couriers, going from there to the "minor ports" and back,
and the traders with mail contracts, visiting the "backwaters" and "fron-
tiers", would make for a pretty good and reliable postal service for the
general public of the Third Imperium.

A message from a "main port" to a "frontier" would take only a few days
more than two weeks (one week per scout courier to the "minor port", a
second week from there per trader to the "frontier"), which - sorry to
mention that - is still significantly faster than a private or business letter
from Rome to Munich (not to mention really remote places ...) today.

So, in my view the postal connections in many regions of the Third Impe-
rium are about equivalent to what we had in Europe before the Internet
became the new communications standard, say in the 1970s. This is a
lot better than during the Age of Sail, I think.

True, this comparison breaks down when it comes to the really long dis-
tances in the Third Imperium. But then again, when my lady travelled
through South East Asia in the 1980s, the letters she wrote to me from
places like Singapore or Bali took several months to arrive here in Ger-
many ...

 

[rust]

Has that been established now?

When I tried to look it up a short while ago, there still seemed to be an
inconclusive debate whether gravity is a property of space (making the
transfer instantaneous) or a force transmitted by graviton particles (re-
ducing the speed to c) ... or at least that was what I think I understood.

 

[Dave Chase]

Whenever anyone says something is "self-evident" and can't be bothered to explain why, that usually means that they don't know what they're talking about.

Not defending the person you directed this to EDG, but IMO, this can be quite inaccurate.

It's "self-evident" to me that the Sun gives off light and heat. I couldn't explain it without looking it up but I don't wish to do the research. So, I can't be bothered to explain why, but does it make the sun any less bright or warm :?:

Hmm, I think you just proved his point from his view.

You just stated that you couldn't explain it but you know it. When attempting to prove something, it is normally done so using things that can be proved, easily found and etc.

Also for those whom debate is part of life, saying self-evident is a hand wave. Especially when asked to explain or prove it to the other person.

Not knocking you, just attempting to point out the view.
(Please note: I am not speaking for EDG, but from my personal experience in postings, PM's and such with him, this my view point. )

Oh, and Phil (aspqrz), good to see you back and posting.
And from my view, sometimes your posts do come off a bit 'high and mighty'. No insult intended.

Dave Chase

 

[captainjack23]

Hmmm ... I always thought that the x-boats, connecting the "main ports",
plus the scout couriers, going from there to the "minor ports" and back,
and the traders with mail contracts, visiting the "backwaters" and "fron-
tiers", would make for a pretty good and reliable postal service for the
general public of the Third Imperium.

A message from a "main port" to a "frontier" would take only a few days
more than two weeks (one week per scout courier to the "minor port", a
second week from there per trader to the "frontier"), which - sorry to
mention that - is still significantly faster than a private or business letter
from Rome to Munich (not to mention really remote places ...) today.

So, in my view the postal connections in many regions of the Third Impe-
rium are about equivalent to what we had in Europe before the Internet
became the new communications standard, say in the 1970s. This is a
lot better than during the Age of Sail, I think.

True, this comparison breaks down when it comes to the really long dis-
tances in the Third Imperium. But then again, when my lady travelled
through South East Asia in the 1980s, the letters she wrote to me from
places like Singapore or Bali took several months to arrive here in Ger-
many ...

Well, obviously I agree. The trunk and feeder system is very venerable and highly scalable. It also mirrors what we had here in the states: rail mains as the high support main line and motor vehicle or horses as the periphery lines since ....well, now actually, if we add in airplanes. The mains run through the high support areas, the feeds through the outback.

One could trace it back well before the age of sail; I suspect the mail and courier services in the roman and persian empires were the same.

The xboat system was, I always felt, a very effective and elegant solution to a generally overlooked problem in SF; possibly because worrying about the mail is too pedestrian or boring? And one of the background details that they hit right on the nail for the OTU.

I may well be wrong, granted; but I haven't yet seen a good "why" explanation for why xboats don't work, anti-canon fiat arguments aside.

I'd be interested to hear of any, though.

:wink:

 

[silburnl]

BP, I think you are still seriously underestimating the stealth problem - the rough calculation I did upthread was using the formula for passive detection of waste heat using currently available kit (ie TL8):

Rd = 13.4 * Sqrt(A) * T^2
Where:
Rd is the detection range (in km)
A is the cross-sectional area of the target (in m^2)
T is the temperature of the target (in K)

For the maximum passive detection range to be 50,000 km per the RAW - then given the above rule of thumb for TL8 passive sensor performance, a ship (target cross-section of 200 m^2 say) would need to have an effective temperature <20K, whilst a ship-servicing base (target cross-section of 250,000m^2) would need an effective temperature <5K.

If instead the effective temperature of the ship/base is a toasty 300K (ie room temperature - which is still a pretty heroic assumption given that both ships and bases are built around MW-range powerplants) then the ship is detectable out to ~10 million km and the base is detectable out to ~4 AU.

Granted this assumes that what is being looked for is in free space but since 'space is really, really big' was the starting point for this part of the discussion then I took that as a given.

Regards
Luke

 

[captainjack23]

BP, I think you are still seriously underestimating the stealth problem - the rough calculation I did upthread was using the formula for passive detection of waste heat using currently available kit (ie TL8):

Rd = 13.4 * Sqrt(A) * T^2
Where:
Rd is the detection range (in km)
A is the cross-sectional area of the target (in m^2)
T is the temperature of the target (in K)

For the maximum passive detection range to be 50,000 km per the RAW - then given the above rule of thumb for TL8 passive sensor performance, a ship (target cross-section of 200 m^2 say) would need to have an effective temperature <20K, whilst a ship-servicing base (target cross-section of 250,000m^2) would need an effective temperature <5K.

If instead the effective temperature of the ship/base is a toasty 300K (ie room temperature - which is still a pretty heroic assumption given that both ships and bases are built around MW-range powerplants) then the ship is detectable out to ~10 million km and the base is detectable out to ~4 AU.

Granted this assumes that what is being looked for is in free space but since 'space is really, really big' was the starting point for this part of the discussion then I took that as a given.

Regards
Luke

I don't have the books in front of me -are the ranges defined for simple detection ? Or for combat tracking. Once you start trying to hit things, one has to look at effective ranges; which may well be defined by the weapon being used, rather than the sensors.

Also, as I'm thinking -is the "extreme" band open ended ?

 

[aspqrz]

[Oh, and Phil (aspqrz), good to see you back and posting.
And from my view, sometimes your posts do come off a bit 'high and mighty'. No insult intended.

None taken. FWIW, as I tried to explain to EDG, if I was trying to be patronising, he would have been in no doubt whatsoever ... I was merely trying to point out that, given the group of players I have been with since the mid 1970s and their understanding of things economic and historical (and why they had such a level of understanding), his level of seeming lack of knowledge of such things was surprising but, perhaps, his experience(s) with his fellow gamers has been quite different.

Or, in short, if he didn't know the basics, I was happy to accept that there was a potentially good reason for it.

By my way of thinking, that was pretty damn conciliatory, and not patronising at all ... as I noted, the guys I game with (as did most gamers in the early days) came to role playing largely through (or were heavily influenced by) wargames (especially board wargames ... SPI, Avalon Hill and etc.) and therefore were especially (seemingly, compared to EDG) well versed in economics and history ... in more recent years it seems that many gamers have come into the hobby without such a background, which is one of the reasons why I wrote Farm, Forge and Steam (and, indeed, Displaced and Orbis Mundi).

In short, I can understand people not knowing some things in the realms of economics and history ... it's just the way the world works ... but I do expect that people actually not disingenously pretend to not understand or show a level of lack of knowledge, or claimed lack of knowledge, that EDG has increasingly shown.

The point I made is simple, Organised Crime such as we were discussing is traceable by the economic activity it generates and effects ... and it cannot help but create such a paper trail. That's why organisations such as the FBI have so many accountants and, these days, data analysts on their staffs as agents and why so many organised crime figures end up in gaol for tax or other financial fraud rather than, say, murder, robbery or drug dealing ... even though those activities may be what they are involved in in generating their economic activity.

Sure, it often takes many years to generate the evidence for such activities, but it is done ... so Pirate Bases or Loan defaulting ship's crews will be trackable by their paper trail. They may think they've gotten away with it ... for one, two, five, maybe even ten years ... then the wrath of the great god Ghu will descend on them, unexpectedly, in the form of arrests for financial irregularities and tax fraud. And that's for the really really really smart ones ... the dumber ones will be apprehended sooner.

It's like the old Russian joke, "Three people can keep a secret only if two are dead."

This is what is self evident ... but, my apologies if it sounds high and mighty in stating so.

 

[GamerDude]

It's like the old Russian joke, "Three people can keep a secret only if two are dead."

This is what is self evident ... but, my apologies if it sounds high and mighty in stating so.

Hey there...

Y'know I love a lively conversation (debates somehow almost always become personal and devolve into arguments) even if not all the participants are fully educated on the topic... it's an opportunity for people to learn.

THe problem is when someone(s) is inflexible and insists they are right even in the face of the facts, or worse seemingly in an effort to actively deny the facts.

As for the "self evident" stuff, when used properly I see it as saying "hey, look! Sun... see light? feel heat on face? That sun ok?"

So saying something is "self evident" means the speaker/writer is just a lazy ass who doesn't know what they are talking about. Well, tell that to the authors of this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

 

[aspqrz]

So saying something is "self evident" means the speaker/writer is just a lazy ass who doesn't know what they are talking about. Well, tell that to the authors of this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

I disagree. Obviously.

In this instance, the concept of a "paper trail" (aka "tracking economic activity") is sufficiently "self evident" in the real world and popular culture to anyone who doesn't live in a self imposed news and media black hole that it is "self evident."

Now, if you seriously tell me that you didn't understand what I was referring to and can simultaneously seriously believe EDG's specious claims he didn't, I'd be quite surprised.

EDG has certainly made it clear he does understand because he's been deleting and/or ignoring the evidence provided (and we all know that has a name on usenet) ... now, given the ubiquity of the concept in the real world and in popular culture (does he not watch any TV cop shows, for example?), I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to provide thousands of pages of case studies, but enough evidence has been provided.

So, are you completely baffled and confounded by the concept of tracking criminal activity through their economic activity and, hence, have no clew as to the concept of a ""paper" trail and its historic use?

Seriously.

Phil

 

[Duroon]

So saying something is "self evident" means the speaker/writer is just a lazy ass who doesn't know what they are talking about. Well, tell that to the authors of this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

I disagree. Obviously.

In this instance, the concept of a "paper trail" (aka "tracking economic activity") is sufficiently "self evident" in the real world and popular culture to anyone who doesn't live in a self imposed news and media black hole that it is "self evident."

Now, if you seriously tell me that you didn't understand what I was referring to and can simultaneously seriously believe EDG's specious claims he didn't, I'd be quite surprised.

EDG has certainly made it clear he does understand because he's been deleting and/or ignoring the evidence provided (and we all know that has a name on usenet) ... now, given the ubiquity of the concept in the real world and in popular culture (does he not watch any TV cop shows, for example?), I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to provide thousands of pages of case studies, but enough evidence has been provided.

So, are you completely baffled and confounded by the concept of tracking criminal activity through their economic activity and, hence, have no clew as to the concept of a ""paper" trail and its historic use?

Seriously.

Phil

I am looking forward to the mods locking this thread. By the way professor, way to go on the spelling of clue.

 

[rust]

While I agree with the basic idea of the "paper trail", I see a problem
when it comes to the autonomy of the member worlds of the Third Im-
perium.

To use your real world example, many paper trails disappear as soon
as they reach a national border - just think of the Russian mafia's ac-
tivities in western Europe and our law enforcement agencies' inability
to follow the paper trail across the Polish - Russian border. Or, where
white collar crime is involved, the problems to get informations from
nations like Liechtenstein and Monaco.

This leaves law enforcement with only "half a paper trail" at best, and
this often does not provide enough informations to comprehend what
really is going on.

The Third Imperium equivalent could be the governments and bureau-
cracies of the member worlds, leaving the Third Imperium with only
the informations that can be gathered in space and at the spaceports,
but with few or no informations about the connections with the planeta-
ry economies - once money or goods have left the spaceport, they may
well get "out of sight" for good.

 

[FreeTrav]

So, are you completely baffled and confounded by the concept of tracking criminal activity through their economic activity and, hence, have no clew as to the concept of a ""paper" trail and its historic use?

Seriously.

Phil

I am looking forward to the mods locking this thread. By the way professor, way to go on the spelling of clue.

I see no reason for the thread to be locked; at most, I might ask Phil to tone down the rhetorical level of his posts; he does tend to get somewhat emphatic and absolutist in his pronouncements, even when it's clear that he's not intending to be.

As to his spelling of clue/clew, I invite you to look at the email address in each of his posts - it ends in .au, which is the internet DNS country code for Australia - they use British spellings there, and 'clew' is at least as valid there as 'clue'.

 

[FreeTrav]

While I agree with the basic idea of the "paper trail", I see a problem
when it comes to the autonomy of the member worlds of the Third Im-
perium.

(remainder of post deleted for space)

This is quite a good point, and explains why ships might be able to disappear or go rogue in Traveller; the Imperium is NOT a strong central government such as the US Federal government, and its scope is, in fact, limited - canonically, it claims only to rule the space between worlds; in practice, its power runs there and to the cessions for starports, and it may have great influence on many worlds - but while the Imperium might send His Imperial Majesty's Tenth Auditor to the world of Potrzebie to demand, with all of His Imperial Majesty's power, that the records pertaining to one Free Trader Thing-a-ma-jig of the Empress Marava class, and all persons associated with said ship in an official capacity such as crew, owner, sponsor, et cetera, those demands aren't going to do much good if the Government of Potrzebie doesn't KEEP such records - or if there IS not Government of Potrzebie...

That said, Phil does have a valid point about the paper trail; it's not unlikely that His Imperial Majesty's government could in fact determine that the Thing-a-ma-jig is using Potrzebie as a base for at least some of its nefarious activities. The question then comes up as to what HIMG can or will do about it.

 

[GamerDude]

So, are you completely baffled and confounded by the concept of tracking criminal activity through their economic activity and, hence, have no clew as to the concept of a ""paper" trail and its historic use?

Oh I got it from the start. I grew up in NYC, the like world capital of organized crime, white collar crime, and good old regular crime.

 

[captainjack23]

While I agree with the basic idea of the "paper trail", I see a problem
when it comes to the autonomy of the member worlds of the Third Im-
perium.

(remainder of post deleted for space)

This is quite a good point, and explains why ships might be able to disappear or go rogue in Traveller; the Imperium is NOT a strong central government such as the US Federal government, and its scope is, in fact, limited - canonically, it claims only to rule the space between worlds; in practice, its power runs there and to the cessions for starports, and it may have great influence on many worlds - but while the Imperium might send His Imperial Majesty's Tenth Auditor to the world of Potrzebie to demand, with all of His Imperial Majesty's power, that the records pertaining to one Free Trader Thing-a-ma-jig of the Empress Marava class, and all persons associated with said ship in an official capacity such as crew, owner, sponsor, et cetera, those demands aren't going to do much good if the Government of Potrzebie doesn't KEEP such records - or if there IS not Government of Potrzebie...

That said, Phil does have a valid point about the paper trail; it's not unlikely that His Imperial Majesty's government could in fact determine that the Thing-a-ma-jig is using Potrzebie as a base for at least some of its nefarious activities. The question then comes up as to what HIMG can or will do about it.

Well, exactly. The point I get out of it is that bases can last for a while -probably less than ten years (as a random number) before they either move, or get stomped. In US waters, one cannot outrun radio, the coastguard/navy...or airpower. A less centralized & time delayed government such as the 3I will have to take a while to get the data together, and presumably, a warrant to act - probably against the local government.
See, even in period, a pirate port was generally a port with a government looking the other way; and often enough, it was that government with eventually cut it off. Port Royal and Tortuga, and etc were all state tolerated enterprises -and once the big dog (Spain) had been dealt with, and the wars were over - goodbye, and watch the step at the top of the gallows....Henry Morgan, when he became Lt Gov of Jamaca (and thus Port Royal) became the terror of the local pirates who refused to retire. He hung lots of his old chums, they say.

Other ones tended to be very makeshift, mobile and short lived. Which is great for campaigns who want some piracy, without wrecking the whole economy of the campaign. Drake had a "secret base somewhere in the carribean he and a couple of french filibusters used to raid Spanish holdings. After a few seasons, they packed up, parted ways, and it was gone. And, I've never found any reference to where it was......to this day. See, it was secret.

 

[Duroon]

I see no reason for the thread to be locked; at most, I might ask Phil to tone down the rhetorical level of his posts; he does tend to get somewhat emphatic and absolutist in his pronouncements, even when it's clear that he's not intending to be.

Emphatic? Comes across as a whining know it all from my end. And as far as it being clear that isn't what he intends, it is far from clear. Seems to me he is trying to get under other people's skin with his posts. That's the problem with electronic forums, you can't judge a person's intent as well as if you can see the body language or hear the response.

Yes, I am aware that I don't have to read any of what he posts. Most likely I won't from here on out.