Ships - player owned... or not

[Charakan]

I'm with EDG on the banking aspect, considering the amount of non-electronic money thats floating around on low tech worlds it must be possible to deal primarily in cash.

Also considering the size of the Third Imperium and the sheer amount of businesses that must exist it must be a money launderers dream.

 

[rust]

If it generally worked that way - we'd have no terrorists or organized crime or spam...

It depends only on the "environment". While in the real world crime is
quite easy in countries like Nigeria, it is much different in countries like
Switzerland.

Unfortunately the "environment" of the Third Imperium is both not well
detailed and quite diverse, so there will probably be regions where pira-
cy, skipping and thelike are not very risky, while in other regions even
the attempt would be suicidal.

 

[Charakan]

Even if these facilities are rare within the 3I there are places in charted space where they must be pretty common for example the chaos of Vargr Space is a prime location.

 

[Marchand]

1) In the 2D OTU, I tend to agree that hidden pirate bases are a wee bit unrealistic. Space is big, but also cold and dark. Anything using power is too easily detectable. In a setting as constrained as the 3I, it's too easy to seed every system with a sensor buoy. That's 11,000 systems, IIRC. Two thousand ships - even one thousand - could maintain a pretty thorough survey schedule. I'm no canon expert but I'd guess the 3I could field that many ships.

Sure, the pirates could sabotage the buoys... for a while. But eventually, someone in the authorities will twig - I would guess soon enough to render the initial investment in the facility uneconomic, but that is up to individual taste.

2) In 3D space, I'm much keener on the idea, just because there are so many more systems that monitoring them all would be beyond any interstellar government. At one star system per 430 cubic lightyears, which I think is roughly what astronomers reckon is the RL density, the 11,000 systems of the 3I would be found in a sphere of radius just 100ly. A 500ly radius sphere would contain over 120k systems. Plenty more room to hide in...

 

[EDG]

2) In 3D space, I'm much keener on the idea, just because there are so many more systems that monitoring them all would be beyond any interstellar government. At one star system per 430 cubic lightyears, which I think is roughly what astronomers reckon is the RL density, the 11,000 systems of the 3I would be found in a sphere of radius just 100ly. A 500ly radius sphere would contain over 120k systems. Plenty more room to hide in...

Stellar density in our neighbourhood is about 0.002 stars per cubic lightyear, which translates roughly to one star per 8x8x8ly cube. So in a sphere of 100ly radius (4188790 cubic ly), there should be about 8400 star systems.

 

[EDG]

Really, given the "age of sail" comparisons, I think people need to look at what actually happened in that age when it came to ship-buying and loans and banking etc.

But do ensure that you're looking at what happened with privately owned sailing ships (if there even were any, and they weren't all owned by navies etc). It'd be relatively easy to track down loans given to landowners in far off lands, because they're not mobile and so the banks could (relatively) easily track down those people - but ships can easily disappear off the (not yet invented) radar. They could be lost at sea, or fall to piracy, or become pirates, or vanish off the beaten track.

So, what happened in that era? Were there even any privately owned trading vessels or galleons at all?

 

[Treebore]

I can tell you what my banks do.

They put a "Instant Death Switch" on every ship they finance. They are tied into your Navigation, sensor, Jump, and Maneuver Drive systems.

It records everything. All known methods of tampering will cause this system to "kill" your ship. Tamper with it further and it will cause systems to be made inoperable via computer virus', induced system overloads, and the like.

While you are making payments you also have to log all your "flights" with your bank ahead of time. Deviate from these logged flight plans and the "kill switch" is activated.

The banks are constantly monitoring the system, and update software practically every time they update it with your latest flight plans.

Plus they like to hide things on ships that they "own".

Is it impossible to "steal" ships? No, but it certainly makes it a lot harder, and prevents most pirates from stealing ships.

This "system" also ensures that ships are only used for legal endeavors, and permitted operations, since these system recordings are legally admissable evidence.

Violate any terms of the mortgage, these systems prove it, and your ship is repossessed by the owning bank.

Realize the banks hire teams of experts to create this system and to keep it up to date, and these teams are often sequestered in luxury accomodations for the rest of their life to prevent them from "leaking" ways to bypass these systems.

In fact, similar systems are installed on all military ships belonging to the Imperium, and many system ships have the same thing done.

 

[EDG]

While you are making payments you also have to log all your "flights" with your bank ahead of time. Deviate from these logged flight plans and the "kill switch" is activated.

The banks are constantly monitoring the system, and update software practically every time they update it with your latest flight plans.

How could this possibly work given that nobody knows where they're going to be going ahead of time? And if you misjump and end up somewhere that you're not supposed to be, this would kill the ship! How can the banks constantly monitor the system? Do you have banks in every single system?

 

[Treebore]

While you are making payments you also have to log all your "flights" with your bank ahead of time. Deviate from these logged flight plans and the "kill switch" is activated.

The banks are constantly monitoring the system, and update software practically every time they update it with your latest flight plans.

How could this possibly work given that nobody knows where they're going to be going ahead of time? And if you misjump and end up somewhere that you're not supposed to be, this would kill the ship! How can the banks constantly monitor the system? Do you have banks in every single system?

Quit simple, you want to own the ship, you do your "trade/work" in the main space lanes, where they can monitor you whenever you move in system, or Jump into new ones.

IE, the banks "own you" until you own the ship.

Its incredible motivation to get a ship paid off ASAP.

Plus, like someone brought up earlier, if you ever take a ship in for repairs, and say you did successfully steal your ship, every single part taken off your ship has its data entered. So unless you came up with totally new identities for every single piece of your ship, you will be caught sooner or later.

Adventurers always need repairs, often extensive repairs, sooner or later.

So the best thing to do is start legit and stay legit.

I don't know about you, but my players ALWAYS know where they are going, so they have always been able to log "flight plans" ahead of time.

The system does have leeway, to account for pirate attacks, evasive maneuvers and the like. However there are also associated time contraints, parameters of which change with what the sensors the system is tied into tells the device, and the device compares to given data sets.

So, like I said, its not impossible to steal such ships, but it is a lot harder and riskier.

 

[Tanlis1964]

For my group, I made an Starship Auction, where they can trade in ship shares (converting actual ship gains into ship shares), and roll the dice using Broker. They "bid" on a ship, and I roll a dice to see how many people will bid against them, then roll the opponents Broker, and use their effect as a negative modifier to the character's Broker skill. For every 5 ship shares expended by the characters, they get a +1 DM to the roll. If they make their Broker Roll 8+, then they have one beat to crap, almost obsolete ship with system that have to be repaired, but they OWN the ship free and clear.

I gave the players the option of using the ship shares and receiveing a ship, or my auction. They went with the auction. They now have a battle damaged and barely functioning 600 ton ship (they don't know it used to be a Pirate Raider). It comes without weapons and the ships boat.

Now, they have to find out if the auctioneer is correct, and the ship is haunted.

 

[aspqrz]

It is "next to impossible" only if no-one ever built it in the first place (and therefore there are no records of its construction and no construction crew to be security risks) and if no-one ever goes there or leaves there to leave a trail.

What trail? Criminal elements don't need to leave a trail. Do you honestly believe that everyone or everything in the Imperium is trackable? Especially given the number of low tech worlds around? Who's to say that the asteroids aren't hollowed out by slaves picked up from low tech worlds that nobody cares about? Who's to say that they wouldn't grow their own food supplies in there, using seeds that they just farmed themselves from some uninhabited world nearby?

Sure, and pigs can fly.

Unless you believe that the Imperium is really just the 1950's with Lasers, AntiGrav and Starships, then the above statement of yours is simply unsupportable ... and a straw man to boot.

Individuals don't have to be trackable, but their economic activity is ... especially with the sort of computer tech we can reasonably assume exists.

If they live on a world no-one cares about, and which is never visited, then, of course no-one will notice them ... but such a world is useless for crime syndicates or characters wanting to skip out on their ship payments for that very reason ... no-one goes there.

If they do, then they become trackable - and if the amount of activity becomes large, as it would have to be to make it worthwhile, it will not only be more easily trackable it wiill have created the preconditions (in that its pissing off the Banks and The Authorities) for making it worth a lot of people's whiles to find out where and what is happenning.

Which rather makes your whole argument ... circularly pointless.

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

I'm with EDG on the banking aspect, considering the amount of non-electronic money thats floating around on low tech worlds it must be possible to deal primarily in cash.

Also considering the size of the Third Imperium and the sheer amount of businesses that must exist it must be a money launderers dream.

And, oh, gee whizz, how did they finger Al Capone?

No computers, see.

They used double entry book-keeping and good old fashioned paper trails.

Paper money still leaves trails as long as records of any sort are kept ... and for the money to have any value and validity in the first place there has to be an authority that issues it and which, therefore, tracks it.

Puhleese, economics doesn't require computers and eCash, nor does it even require paper money, or even gold and silver.

It doesn't matter how trade is conducted or value is determined in the 3rd Imperium it will inevitably display the basic aspects of an economy simply because it is an economy ... and the inherent economic activity is always going to be trackable.

As Al Capone found out.

Phil

 

[iainjcoleman]

I'm with EDG on the banking aspect, considering the amount of non-electronic money thats floating around on low tech worlds it must be possible to deal primarily in cash.

Also considering the size of the Third Imperium and the sheer amount of businesses that must exist it must be a money launderers dream.

And, oh, gee whizz, how did they finger Al Capone?

No computers, see.

They used double entry book-keeping and good old fashioned paper trails.

Paper money still leaves trails as long as records of any sort are kept ... and for the money to have any value and validity in the first place there has to be an authority that issues it and which, therefore, tracks it.

Puhleese, economics doesn't require computers and eCash, nor does it even require paper money, or even gold and silver.

It doesn't matter how trade is conducted or value is determined in the 3rd Imperium it will inevitably display the basic aspects of an economy simply because it is an economy ... and the inherent economic activity is always going to be trackable.

As Al Capone found out.

Phil

Hence why we no longer have organised crime.

 

[CosmicGamer]

IMO, the less likely any criminal base is to be found by authorities, the less likely they would be to be found by the random merchant trying to skip out on their ship payments. 'Running' may occur because folk are down on their luck and having trouble meeting the ship payments but most of these people (I like the characters being able to play repo 'men') or the ships are eventually located, even if the person isn't. Operate a few months without making payments (maybe without even paying the crew!) then take the money and leave the ship behind after maybe selling off some of the quicker, easily salable parts.

For game purposes, if you want the players to be able to skip out or locate a very secret base, you can easily give them a contact who knows the location.

IMO, if a base repairs ships for pirates, provide a 'chop shop' or ship 'cleaning' service, then somehow word needs to get out about their services so that they get enough business to justify the cost of creating the base. Even if it is a private base of operations for a large pirate organization, the coming and going of ships they have 'acquired' does leave a 'trail' in the the nearby systems.

I believe ships would be well documented and the information on them provided to authorities (Imperial star ports). Information on wrecked or missing ships would also be documented (needs to be documented so that owners don't have to keep paying ship registration fees, insurance and whatever else). Information on ships involved in criminal activities, ships reported for skipping out on mortgage payments, insurance payments, taxes, registration fees or anything else could easily and quickly (xboats and other message traffic moves faster than the typical merchant ship) make its way to all the Imperial star ports.

If in YTU star port data (the comings and going of ships including the required flight plans) is shared between star ports, the advanced computers of the future would spit out 'suspicious' activity. Things like a ship suddenly showing up from nowhere or from another sub sector with no trace of how it got here. Although we discuss stealing ships and chopping them as if it was an auto theft ring, star ships are not as common as automobiles.

I'm not saying it's impossible for a very organized pirate group to 'clean' a ship. I believe the average person would know that you can only 'run' from your mortgage for so long before getting caught and would not have access to the professionals needed to 'clean' their ship. I think it would be more common for a ship to be 'chopped' or discarded.

 

[EDG]

Hence why we no longer have organised crime.

Bingo.

Given the size of space to hide in, and the total lack of any kind of centralisation in the Imperium, I cannot see any way for anyone to track anything there.

Organised crime should be thriving.

 

[Treebore]

Hence why we no longer have organised crime.

Bingo.

Given the size of space to hide in, and the total lack of any kind of centralisation in the Imperium, I cannot see any way for anyone to track anything there.

Organised crime should be thriving.

Oh, it is, but its just harder to be "successful" due to technology.

Now if your game, in general, is a TL 8 to 10 game, crime can probably prosper as easily as it does today. Plus we are already learning with new technology comes new types of crimes.

However, with new technology comes new ways to capture criminals.

Right now DNA is the big hurdle to over come, especially in murders. Plus there are numerous other forensic clues that can also point a finger at you.

What is the future going to bring? I can assure you one thing it is going to bring is pheromone DNA trackers.

Another thing is "cameras". Look how many crimes are already being caught on film. So as TL increases those cameras are going to become even better at identifying you.

So the future criminal is going to have to know how to bybass all of these technological advancements. Is it going to be impossible for them to do so? No, but its certainly going to be harder, and simple street thug criminal activities are going to become far more uncommmon, and unsolved murders, rapes, assaults, robberies, etc... are going to become rare.

So crime isn't going to become non existent, but what crimes you can do and get away with it, are going to change, drastically.

Plus Criminals in hi tech societies are going to have to be hi tech themselves. Simple street thugs will become a thing of the past.

 

[CaptnBrazil]

I've got to agree with EDG et al: space and the Imperium is really, really big. Factor in the information delay, and also that not only do law enforcement get better tech but so do the bad guys, that and what is at the interstellar level a mostly cash environment, there is a LOT of room for the criminal element.

 

[EDG]

I've got to agree with EDG et al: space and the Imperium is really, really big. Factor in the information delay, and also that not only do law enforcement get better tech but so do the bad guys, that and what is at the interstellar level a mostly cash environment, there is a LOT of room for the criminal element.

It's not just that the info is delayed too, it's that it can only travel via certain routes. Information (be they about events, (or people, or data records) doesn't radiate uniformly outward from where it was created - heck, it may not even leave the system it was created in, if nobody bothers to take the information with them elsewhere. So there is plenty of opportunity to slip between the cracks.

 

[Treebore]

I've got to agree with EDG et al: space and the Imperium is really, really big. Factor in the information delay, and also that not only do law enforcement get better tech but so do the bad guys, that and what is at the interstellar level a mostly cash environment, there is a LOT of room for the criminal element.

It's not just that the info is delayed too, it's that it can only travel via certain routes. Information (be they about events, (or people, or data records) doesn't radiate uniformly outward from where it was created - heck, it may not even leave the system it was created in, if nobody bothers to take the information with them elsewhere. So there is plenty of opportunity to slip between the cracks.

Yeah, but your talking about "random slipping through the cracks".

Successful criminals do not rely on "random". Those who do are the ones who occupy prisons.

Successful criminals control every aspect of their activities as much as they possibly can, simply because it prolongs how long they will be successful.

Take modern day serial killers as an example. They know how DNA can screw them, so they do their best to not leave DNA behind.

This "method" applies to any criminal activity. You do not want to be recorded, either on camera or in a computer system.

So a long term successful criminal will learn these systems used in their local environment and learn how to bypass them.

Another thing I have noticed about criminals. There aren't as many of them out in the middle of no where. They live in the thick of things, simply because that is where the most opportunities and worthwhile pay offs exist. They have to operate where the money is.

So they may go hide in the fringe ares, but unless those areas also have money and the resources the criminal needs, major criminals are not going to operate there, only the stupid thugs are. So you will only see petty extortion, petty robberies, etc... in these areas. The profit margins are going to be small.

Big time criminals are going to operate where big time money is. Fringe areas may not have big time money, especially if its the kind of area you hide in. Not much traffic means not much money, comparatively speaking.

So if your happy being in the fringe, making chump change, thats all well and good. If you want to go big time your going to have to go where the big money is.

 

[EDG]

I didn't say anything about "randomly" slipping through the cracks at all...