Ship's Fabricator

[rinku]

Well, they're not strictly speaking *incompatible*. CSC just mentions a couple of points that RHB omits. In both publications a TL13 fab is only capable of simple biomechanical prints, with full organisms being grown in bioreaction chambers rather than fabricated. It can fabricate an organ but not a person. The TL17 version can, though. You need a chamber double the volume of the fabricated object in both.

I'd just put it down to RHB being all about slots. CSC doesn't use Robot Slots as a unit, so expressing chamber size in chamber litres is better there. CSC does provide a conversion. As far as I can see, the CSC entry is the full description, with RHB being a subset.

RHB is fine if what you are printing are other robots, or small items. If you need industrial size or external fabricators, CSC is better framed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, they're not strictly speaking *incompatible*. CSC just mentions a couple of points that RHB omits. In both publications a TL13 fab is only capable of simple biomechanical prints, with full organisms being grown in bioreaction chambers rather than fabricated. It can fabricate an organ but not a person. The TL17 version can, though. You need a chamber double the volume of the fabricated object in both.

I'd just put it down to RHB being all about slots. CSC doesn't use Robot Slots as a unit, so expressing chamber size in chamber litres is better there. CSC does provide a conversion. As far as I can see, the CSC entry is the full description, with RHB being a subset.

RHB is fine if what you are printing are other robots, or small items. If you need industrial size or external fabricators, CSC is better framed.

So... How many chamber liters are in a Dton?

 

[Terry Mixon]

So... How many chamber liters are in a Dton?

14,000. 1,000 liters (same as chamber liter) in a cubic meter.

 

[MasterGwydion]

14,000. 1,000 liters (same as chamber liter) in a cubic meter.

1 liter is 1 kilogram of water
1 kilogram of hydrogen is 11,200ish liters or 11.2ish m3

So how much volume is a dton? Still doesn't match up.

 

[rinku]

Robot slots are a bit of a flexible unit, but CSC goes with 1.5 chamber litres = 1 slot (CSC p8). Keeping in mind the chamber needs to be double that to fabricate, that seems to be where the 3L per slot figure in RHB comes from.

And check your source. I get the same 11.2 figure from AI, but Wikipedia says 14.1.

I know which one I would trust better. But it may be pressure and temperature related.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Robot slots are a bit of a flexible unit, but CSC goes with 1.5 chamber litres = 1 slot (CSC p8). Keeping in mind the chamber needs to be double that to fabricate, that seems to be where the 3L per slot figure in RHB comes from.

And check your source. I get the same 11.2 figure from AI, but Wikipedia says 14.1.

I know which one I would trust better. But it may be pressure and temperature related.

This is how I know I am old. I am missing My hardcover textbooks...

 

[Terry Mixon]

1 liter is 1 kilogram of water
1 kilogram of hydrogen is 11,200ish liters or 11.2ish m3

So how much volume is a dton? Still doesn't match up.

A litre is a cubic decimetre, which is the volume of a cube 10 centimetres × 10 centimetres × 10 centimetres (1 L ≡ 1 dm3 ≡ 1000 cm3). Hence 1 L ≡ 0.001 m3 ≡ 1000 cm3; and 1 m3 (i.e. a cubic metre, which is the SI unit for volume) is exactly 1000 L.

That gives precise measurements. 1,000 liters volume per cubic meter. 14,000 liters per dton.

 

[rinku]

That's why the rest of the world can tell you the weight of a litre of milk. How many pounds does a pint of milk weigh? A gallon?

 

[MonsterX]

That's why the rest of the world can tell you the weight of a litre of milk. How many pounds does a pint of milk weigh? A gallon?

1 lbs. -but only because beer comes in pints/half litres, depending on country of origen, so basically an issue I have to confront daily when eating my cornflakes. Second question: 4 1/2 lbs, or wait, that's kilos...sooo.... ummm 10 lbs round about? Off the top of my head.

 

[rinku]

Precisely. Or rather, not

 

[Endie]

1 lbs. -but only because beer comes in pints/half litres, depending on country of origen, so basically an issue I have to confront daily when eating my cornflakes. Second question: 4 1/2 lbs, or wait, that's kilos...sooo.... ummm 10 lbs round about? Off the top of my head.

A US pint of water weighs about (but slightly over) 1.04lbs. An Imperial pint weighs almost exactly (but not actually exactly) 1.25lbs. A US gallon of water weighs about 8.3lbs. It's a stupid system!

Which is why the metric system works so easily in comparison, despte the confusion between volume and weight made in a different post. A cubic metre is a metric ton. A dton is (in Traveller terms) 14 cubic metres. A cubic metre of water (at 4C) weighs a ton. All very simple and easily understood and converted: it matches up in an easy-to-understand way (although I wish MWM had been European and we'd just used cubic metres for ship design).

And yes, that means that your "ton" of pharmaceuticals cargo that you buy and which takes up 10% of your 10dton hold is almost certainly either paracetamol or 99.9% foam packaging...

 

[Gavain]

And yes, that means that your "ton" of pharmaceuticals cargo that you buy and which takes up 10% of your 10dton hold is almost certainly either paracetamol or 99.9% foam packaging...

Or that all cargoes are sold by the displacement ton to comply with the quirks of the space shipping business.

 

[Endie]

Or that all cargoes are sold by the displacement ton to comply with the quirks of the space shipping business.

That's implied by what I said, yes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

A litre is a cubic decimetre, which is the volume of a cube 10 centimetres × 10 centimetres × 10 centimetres (1 L ≡ 1 dm3 ≡ 1000 cm3). Hence 1 L ≡ 0.001 m3 ≡ 1000 cm3; and 1 m3 (i.e. a cubic metre, which is the SI unit for volume) is exactly 1000 L.

That gives precise measurements. 1,000 liters volume per cubic meter. 14,000 liters per dton.

It is a bit of an odd comparison though, as that is only true of water at 1 Atmosphere at 4 degrees C. This is what We use for liters in Traveller.

Instead of using hydrogen at 1 Atmosphere and the same temperature though, for some reason we switched to 1 Atmosphere and -253 degrees C.

Both measured at the same temperature and pressure, you get far different answers. Last I checked, the entire metric system is based on 1 Atmosphere and about 4 degrees C for its calculations. The only thing is that in Traveller, they decided that their unit of volume was going to differ completely from the system from whence it was devised. Am I correct on this, or no?

Edit - Using m3 instead of tonnes and dtons makes way more sense mathematically.

 

[Terry Mixon]

It is a bit of an odd comparison though, as that is only true of water at 1 Atmosphere at 4 degrees C. This is what We use for liters in Traveller.

Instead of using hydrogen at 1 Atmosphere and the same temperature though, for some reason we switched to 1 Atmosphere and -253 degrees C.

Both measured at the same temperature and pressure, you get far different answers. Last I checked, the entire metric system is based on 1 Atmosphere and about 4 degrees C for its calculations. The only thing is that in Traveller, they decided that their unit of volume was going to differ completely from the system from whence it was devised. Am I correct on this, or no?

Edit - Using m3 instead of tonnes and dtons makes way more sense mathematically.

Liters have always, to my knowledge, been a measure of volume. In any case, that is what is used in the game so that is the measure that matters.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Liters have always, to my knowledge, been a measure of volume. In any case, that is what is used in the game so that is the measure that matters.

A liter has always been a measure of volume, but you determine it by measuring it at a specific temperature and pressure. If you don't measure it at the correct temperature and pressure, it is no longer a liter. It is 1 liter plus or minus a bit depending on these factors. If we measure them both at the same pressure and temperature, it depends what temperature you pick as to what the result is. So, what temperature and pressure are used to determine the base unit of volume for 1kg of hydrogen?

Why not measure H2O and H at the same temperature and pressure so We actually have an equivalency?

 

[Terry Mixon]

A liter has always been a measure of volume, but you determine it by measuring it at a specific temperature and pressure. If you don't measure it at the correct temperature and pressure, it is no longer a liter. It is 1 liter plus or minus a bit depending on these factors. If we measure them both at the same pressure and temperature, it depends what temperature you pick as to what the result is. So, what temperature and pressure are used to determine the base unit of volume for 1kg of hydrogen?

Why not measure H2O and H at the same temperature and pressure so We actually have an equivalency?

Um, no. Volume is what it is. What amount of material it holds might be dependent on environmental factors and the material in question, but the container that holds it is not. It remains the same size.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Um, no. Volume is what it is. What amount of material it holds might be dependent on environmental factors and the material in question, but the container that holds it is not. It remains the same size.

Then tell Me how you determine what a liter is. I hope you have a better answer than, "I go get a 1-liter soda bottle and fill it with water."

 

[Terry Mixon]

Then tell Me how you determine what a liter is. I hope you have a better answer than, "I go get a 1-liter soda bottle and fill it with water."

Easy. A volume of a cube 10 centimeters × 10 centimeters × 10 centimeters. Just like I quoted. What goes into it is irrelevant. Whether it be gaseous helium or neutronium, the volume of a liter is consistent and unchanging.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The litre is a derived unit.

It is the result of a cube of side 10cm, the cm being defined as one hundredth of a meter which itself is defined as... you get the point.

The metre is a unit of length, a length x length x length is a volume.

The "correct" unit for volume is the m³