Ship Maintenance costs

[Terry Mixon]

The problem that I have is that they did spell it out. They said you divide by 12 to get the amount you pay ever Maintenance Period. They never say that there are only 12 Maintenance Periods in a year. They only do say that, you pay every 4 weeks.

I invite you to read what I quoted again.

Divide this final figure by 12, and you will have the regular maintenance cost of the ship, payable every Maintenance Period (see page 149).

Divide this figure by 12 and get the maintenance cost, payable every maintenance period.

So, is a yearly amount is divided by 12 and it gives the amount paid every maintenance period, there are in fact 12 maintenance periods in a year. Any other supposition would require contorting things by giving them a period off, which the text does not.

Like I said, the two books are inconsistent and they really should clean things up. The Third Imperium says there are 365 days. The core rulebook says there are 12 maintenance periods of 28 days in a year. The two don’t jibe.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I invite you to read what I quoted again.



Divide this figure by 12 and get the maintenance cost, payable every maintenance period.

So, is a yearly amount is divided by 12 and it gives the amount paid every maintenance period, there are in fact 12 maintenance periods in a year. Any other supposition would require contorting things by giving them a period off, which the text does not.

Like I said, the two books are inconsistent and they really should clean things up. The Third Imperium says there are 365 days. The core rulebook says there are 12 maintenance periods of 28 days in a year. The two don’t jibe.

I see your problem. You are assuming that because it says divide by 12 that the reason you divide by 12 is because you are thinking about 12 months in a year. It does not say that. All it does is give you the formula to figure out your payments made every Maintenance Period. Then it says that you pay this amount every Maintenance Period (4 weeks.) Nowhere does it say that you do not make a 13th payment in a year. I have just looked at every mention of mortgage payments, life support duration, and Maintenance Period in the CRB. Nowhere does it say that there are only 12 maintenance periods in a year. Nowhere. It gives you formulas that divide by 12, but never tells you why you divide by 12. You are assuming that it is because in Our calendar, anything divided by 12 either due to hours or months. The 3rd Imperium doesn't use months. They date things by the year and day. For example, 1105-349 is the 349th day of the 1,105th year of the 3rd Imperium.

Edit- Or if it does say differently, can you please point out where to Me so I can stop looking like an idiot. lol

 

[Terry Mixon]

I see your problem. You are assuming that because it says divide by 12 that the reason you divide by 12 is because you are thinking about 12 months in a year. It does not say that. All it does is give you the formula to figure out your payments made every Maintenance Period. Then it says that you pay this amount every Maintenance Period (4 weeks.) Nowhere does it say that you do not make a 13th payment in a year. I have just looked at every mention of mortgage payments, life support duration, and Maintenance Period in the CRB. Nowhere does it say that there are only 12 maintenance periods in a year. Nowhere. It gives you formulas that divide by 12, but never tells you why you divide by 12. You are assuming that it is because in Our calendar, anything divided by 12 either due to hours or months. The 3rd Imperium doesn't use months. They date things by the year and day. For example, 1105-349 is the 349th day of the 1,105th year of the 3rd Imperium.

Edit- Or if it does say differently, can you please point out where to Me so I can stop looking like an idiot. lol

It takes the maintenance costs for a year before making the division by 12. It doesn't explicitly say that the total cost of the ship, minus any other ships it is carrying, divided by 1,000 is a year, but lacking any other explanation of what it means, I believe it to be a year. Also, the mortgage is divided by 240 and 480 payments make 40 years. So, once again, divided by 12. As no pass for a mortgage payment is mentioned, there is no ghostly 13th month in the core rulebook.

Make no mistake, I'm not defending their statements in the core rulebook. As I said before, I use 13 months of 4 weeks each and give the crews a pass for month 13 on maintenance and mortgage. In my opinion, what is stated in the core rulebook is wrong and should be updated to fit with the length of year used in The Third Imperium. Make it 13 months and give the ship a pass on that month and the discrepancy is gone.

As to it not mentioning a 13th payment in a year, it also doesn't mention a discount if payment is made in gilded lilies. The lack of it saying something isn't done is not proof that it is done. It is clear that the payments are made EVERY maintenance period and with a division by 12 and the mortgage also being 12 based, there is no evidence to support 13 months in the core rulebook.

We can all do as we like, but the rules as written are straightforward and deviation from a 12-month year requires contortion and that isn't proof.

 

[rinku]

It's like trying to reconcile the solar year and the lunar month all over again, but in spaaaaaace. Been going on since Babylon.

First of all, it's already an abstraction. In practice, the actual costs incurred for any real world maintenance regime are sporadic, as parts wear out and such. You budget for it but the actual costs in a given time period might be more or might be less.

Secondly, it's YTU and there's at least two easy solutions you can apply. Firstly, Traveller has always been sloppy about the term Month and how many days it includes, but the 7 day week block has always been the core of campaign time. One week in jump, one week in port. Two jumps per 4 week "month". So just have 13 maintenance periods per 365 day year (and a day off for Holiday). Simples.

Or... redefine a stellar year to be 336 days long. 12 months of 28 days. It's not like a rigid 365 day year is going to stay in synch with Terra anyway (out of synch in 4 years. A milennium later that's blown out to 8 months or so), let alone every other planet. It's your TU.

Or divide by 13. Or 10. Or 20. There need not be any relationship between the amount that needs to be paid every 4 weeks and the year.

(As far as mortgages go, banks do that. Work out a minimum monthly amount but let you pay 4 weekly or fortnightly. That's just finance.)

 

[Terry Mixon]

Found this:

Repairs and Maintenance: A ship needs maintenance, which costs 0.1% of the total purchase price of the ship per year.

So, the maintenance amount that is divided by 12 is for a year. By the reading of what is quoted in my posts above about the core rulebook, it is divided by 12 and a payment made EVERY maintenance period. Every is pretty specific. i.e. don't skip any. So, the core rulebook has there being 12 maintiance periods in a year. That's 28x12=336 days, and so not what is said in The Third Imperium. What is in the core rulebook is wrong as written.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The mortgage is phrased this way.

The monthly repayments on a ship mortgage are easy to calculate. Start with the total purchase price of the ship being bought, then divide this amount by 240. This is the amount that must be repaid every Maintenance Period for the next 40 years.

Again, every maintenance period with no skips. That jibes with the division by 240 and there being 480 payments in 40 years.

To be clear, I am not saying they are correct in the core rulebook. They are not. They conflated maintenance periods and months and not have to deal with the shortage of days in the year.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It takes the maintenance costs for a year before making the division by 12. It doesn't explicitly say that the total cost of the ship, minus any other ships it is carrying, divided by 1,000 is a year, but lacking any other explanation of what it means, I believe it to be a year. Also, the mortgage is divided by 240 and 480 payments make 40 years. So, once again, divided by 12. As no pass for a mortgage payment is mentioned, there is no ghostly 13th month in the core rulebook.

Make no mistake, I'm not defending their statements in the core rulebook. As I said before, I use 13 months of 4 weeks each and give the crews a pass for month 13 on maintenance and mortgage. In my opinion, what is stated in the core rulebook is wrong and should be updated to fit with the length of year used in The Third Imperium. Make it 13 months and give the ship a pass on that month and the discrepancy is gone.

As to it not mentioning a 13th payment in a year, it also doesn't mention a discount if payment is made in gilded lilies. The lack of it saying something isn't done is not proof that it is done. It is clear that the payments are made EVERY maintenance period and with a division by 12 and the mortgage also being 12 based, there is no evidence to support 13 months in the core rulebook.

Right here in your statement. "It is clear that payments are made EVERY Maintenance Period" See MY previous answer where I listed CRB and page number as well as the quote defining a "Maintenance Period" (4 weeks). The setting is also very clear, that the Third Imperium uses 52 weeks totaling 364 days plus 1 Holiday. I can do math. 52/4=13, not 12.

We can all do as we like, but the rules as written are straightforward and deviation from a 12-month year requires contortion and that isn't proof.

It is not contortion. It is exactly RAW. I doubt it is RAI, but it is definitely RAW. I think it needs to be written more clearly only in the fact that they need to state how many Maintenance Periods there are in a year. The math that they gave Us defining a Maintenance Period is 4 weeks. It is not My fault that the writers failed to do math for over 40 years.

 

[Condottiere]

Insurance and suggested maintenance for jump drives could be annual, or tonnage times parsecs jumped.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The mortgage is phrased this way.



Again, every maintenance period with no skips. That jibes with the division by 240 and there being 480 payments in 40 years.

Except that you divide by 240 and pay that amount for every Maintenance Period for 40 years. (520 payments over 40 years as opposed to 480)

To be clear, I am not saying they are correct in the core rulebook. They are not. They conflated maintenance periods and months and not have to deal with the shortage of days in the year.

Or We are conflating Maintenance Periods with months. Nowhere in any book I can find defines a Maintenance Period as a month. They all define it as 4 weeks. They use numbers in the math that are easy to assume are referencing 12 months/Maintenance Periods in a year, but nowhere does it actually say that.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Right here in your statement. "It is clear that payments are made EVERY Maintenance Period" See MY previous answer where I listed CRB and page number as well as the quote defining a "Maintenance Period" (4 weeks). The setting is also very clear, that the Third Imperium uses 52 weeks totaling 364 days plus 1 Holiday. I can do math. 52/4=13, not 12.

It is not contortion. It is exactly RAW. I doubt it is RAI, but it is definitely RAW. I think it needs to be written more clearly only in the fact that they need to state how many Maintenance Periods there are in a year. The math that they gave Us defining a Maintenance Period is 4 weeks. It is not My fault that the writers failed to do math for over 40 years.

You are bringing in The Third Imperium to defend the core rulebook where I am saying the core rulebook is internally consistent but wrong because of what is said in The Third Imperium.

I'm not sure how I can make this any plainer. Just because a second book says something does not make the first book correct. It is not. Twisting the core rulebook's clear language and intent does not make it jibe with what is in The Third Imperium. They made a mistake in the core rulebook. That's why you have to divide by 260 in your games to make it work.

We both agree that Traveller should have 365 days. Check. The problem comes when trying to reconcile two different sets of statements from two different books that do not agree. As much as it may pain you, the way of doing things in the core rulebook clearly supports a 12-month year with 12 maintenance periods in it.

Numbers tell the tale. The mortgage and maintenance fees support 12 payments a year with them being due every maintenance period. That does not support a mythical 13th month simply because it would reconcile the two books. The core rulebook is wrong. It needs to be updated. Every time you drag in The Third Imperium, it has no bearing on what is in the core rulebook. It's a distraction from the error they made.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Except that you divide by 240 and pay that amount for every Maintenance Period for 40 years. (520 payments over 40 years as opposed to 480)

Nothing in the book supports that number. Making up something to make it work doesn't actually justify it as being correct. It's a workaround to make it work the way you want it to.

Or We are conflating Maintenance Periods with months. Nowhere in any book I can find defines a Maintenance Period as a month. They all define it as 4 weeks. They use numbers in the math that are easy to assume are referencing 12 months/Maintenance Periods in a year, but nowhere does it actually say that.

Directly? No. Indirectly, yes. Let me quote a few things again.

Repairs and Maintenance: A ship needs maintenance, which costs 0.1% of the total purchase price of the ship per year.

We have now established that the 0.1% of the purchase price is a per year number. That is outright said there.

Divide this final figure by 12, and you will have the regular maintenance cost of the ship, payable every Maintenance Period (see page 149).

So, the figure that is clearly stated as being for a year is divided by 12 and that amount is paid every maintenance period for a year. No skipped periods. Every single one.

Taken together, there are 12 maintenance periods in a year. Twelve 28-day maintenance periods. 336 days. That is a clear and definitive reading of the rules as written in the core rulebook. Not 13 periods. 12 don't miss a single one periods a year.

Now that we established that math is hard for Mongoose, we can turn our attention to the mortgage.

Start with the total purchase price of the ship being bought, then divide this amount by 240.

Not 260. 240. That affirms the 12 periods in a year bias as it is baked into the math.

This is the amount that must be repaid every Maintenance Period for the next 40 years.

It must be paid every maintenance period. We've established there are 12 in a year, so the math again checks out. 336 days in a year, a clearly wrong number.

As I've taken pains to say multiple times, that's wrong and The Third Imperium is correct. As the two numbers cannot both be right, the core rulebook is clearly wrong on that.

You can make the mortgage payments by dividing by 260 and work with 13 maintenance periods a year (I do, and I wasn't smart enough to recalculate the numbers) but that is a workaround not supported by the rules as written. I am fully on board with how you are doing this, and my only comment is that it is a workaround, not how things are spelled out.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You are bringing in The Third Imperium to defend the core rulebook where I am saying the core rulebook is internally consistent but wrong because of what is said in The Third Imperium.

I'm not sure how I can make this any plainer. Just because a second book says something does not make the first book correct. It is not. Twisting the core rulebook's clear language and intent does not make it jibe with what is in The Third Imperium. They made a mistake in the core rulebook. That's why you have to divide by 260 in your games to make it work.

I do this only to preserve the game's intent. ROI if you will. It keeps the yearly payments the same. 2.5MCr a year on a 50MCr ship. It comes out the same if you use 240 and 12 months or 260 and 13 months. That is the only reason I do it. That way the PCs are still paying the same amount per year on things like mortgage and maintenance.

We both agree that Traveller should have 365 days. Check. The problem comes when trying to reconcile two different sets of statements from two different books that do not agree. As much as it may pain you, the way of doing things in the core rulebook clearly supports a 12-month year with 12 maintenance periods in it.

It does "clearly support" that, yes. The problem occurs when you assume that the generic CRB Traveller universe uses a base of 336 days. That is stated nowhere. You are making it up. I am only using exactly what is printed in the book. Nowhere does it state that you make 12 payments each year. You are making that up also. I understand that it this is not being done maliciously, but in the spirit of debate and evidence in printed material.

Numbers tell the tale. The mortgage and maintenance fees support 12 payments a year with them being due every maintenance period. That does not support a mythical 13th month simply because it would reconcile the two books. The core rulebook is wrong. It needs to be updated. Every time you drag in The Third Imperium, it has no bearing on what is in the core rulebook. It's a distraction from the error they made.

The numbers do tell the tale. 52 weeks divided by 4 weeks per Maintenance Period equals 13 Maintenance Periods per year. Nowhere does it say that this is incorrect. At least nowhere that I have found. You seem to be using facts not in evidence. Such as 336 days in a year and that 12 payments are made each year. The CRB doesn't state either of those 2 things.

I do enjoy conversations like this. They make Me reexamine My assumptions about how Traveller works.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Nothing in the book supports that number. Making up something to make it work doesn't actually justify it as being correct. It's a workaround to make it work the way you want it to.



Directly? No. Indirectly, yes. Let me quote a few things again.



We have now established that the 0.1% of the purchase price is a per year number. That is outright said there.



So, the figure that is clearly stated as being for a year is divided by 12 and that amount is paid every maintenance period for a year. No skipped periods. Every single one.

Taken together, there are 12 maintenance periods in a year. Twelve 28-day maintenance periods. 336 days. That is a clear and definitive reading of the rules as written in the core rulebook. Not 13 periods. 12 don't miss a single one periods a year.

You got Me on this one. Clearly the generic Traveller Universe only has 336 days a years. So, now we need new rules for what to do when the years have different lengths in whichever universe you are running, Charted Space or a homebrew with 540 days a year.

 

[Condottiere]

How about fourteen hundred and sixty one days?

One career term.

 

[rinku]

To be honest, if this actually bugs you the easy out is to divide the annual maintenance cost by 13.

Or, revert to CT rules and just have it an actual annual payment made to get annual maintenance done. With breakdown checks for each month PAST annual maintenance if it was not performed.

 

[Terry Mixon]

To be honest, if this actually bugs you the easy out is to divide the annual maintenance cost by 13.

Or, revert to CT rules and just have it an actual annual payment made to get annual maintenance done. With breakdown checks for each month PAST annual maintenance if it was not performed.

I believe both of us do this already. The disagreement was whether the core rules were different than Charted Space. So, maybe we were having a bit of violent agreement?

 

[Terry Mixon]

You got Me on this one. Clearly the generic Traveller Universe only has 336 days a years. So, now we need new rules for what to do when the years have different lengths in whichever universe you are running, Charted Space or a homebrew with 540 days a year.

Agreed.