Shadows Q&A

[Da Boss]

Considering Shade of Black is in my local gaming group then no, my answer was sufficient because I do know what he was, or was not, doing wrong.

Well sorry for not psychically knowing that. Plus other people may be reading this, who can learn from a more complete explaination of why shields stopping crits is a moot question. So please grow up and stop trying to say that your answer was somehow "better".

I answered him, because has asked. My answer was sufficient, not better and I said such. Stop whining because you apparently can't read as well as this "child".

It may be (and this is a guess because I do not know either of you) that they put in on the forum becasue they wanted a answer from outside their games group - otherwise would he not have just asked you? Often it is worth asking a wider audiance to confirm that everyone is playing the same way - Occasionally Mongoose (not alone) do have rules that are er well open to interpretation

 

[Burger]

I answered him, because has asked. My answer was sufficient, not better and I said such. Stop whining because you apparently can't read as well as this "child".

Yes maybe your answer was sufficient for him. I don't know him, or his knowledge level, so I gave a more complete answer. As I said, other people may be reading this, who appreciate a more complete answer as to why shields stopping crits is irrelevant, to further their understanding of the game. That is what forums are for, information sharing, n'est pas?

I wasn't ccriticizing your answer, or saying that you were wrong. Just expanding it. So no need for the bad attitude.

 

[SylvrDragon]

It may be (and this is a guess because I do not know either of you) that they put in on the forum becasue they wanted a answer from outside their games group - otherwise would he not have just asked you? Often it is worth asking a wider audiance to confirm that everyone is playing the same way - Occasionally Mongoose (not alone) do have rules that are er well open to interpretation

I answered him the way I did because he has a habit of asking about rules interpretations over and over again even after pointing it out word-for-word in the rule book and it gets real annoying. I told him exactly, in full detail, what burger stated to him in person and pointed it out, in black and white, in the main rule book and we proceeded to play using said rules. I honestly don't know why he asked on here because he usually goes with what ever rules favor him, not caring really if the ruling is correct or not, and since he IS the Shadow player and since we did rule in favor of him I have no clue as to why he posted on here. I've never, in the 3 or 4 years I've known him, seen him try to have a rule that favors him corrected even if he knows it's wrong.

 

[SylvrDragon]

Yes maybe your answer was sufficient for him. I don't know him, or his knowledge level, so I gave a more complete answer. As I said, other people may be reading this, who appreciate a more complete answer as to why shields stopping crits is irrelevant, to further their understanding of the game. That is what forums are for, information sharing, n'est pas?

I wasn't ccriticizing your answer, or saying that you were wrong. Just expanding it. So no need for the bad attitude.

If I came across as having an attitude I do apologize. In my defense there are those, at least one person, in this thread that seem more inclined towards attacking my character than countering my posts.

 

[SylvrDragon]

Oh, an interesting side note to those "i only have 1 weapon" advocates. I was crunching the numbers on the Young's firepower vs. the Warlocks and came up with these following figures. For note, these figures are based on the hits dealt over 4 turns, though these specific numbers have been averaged out to what should be done in a single round, so that I can get a better average on the crits.

Young: (damage/crew)
Damage per turn (DPT): 23.94 / 26.4
Criticals per turn (CPT): 1.75

Warlock (No beam)
DPT: 11.06 / 11.87
CPT: 1.5

Warlock (Beam)
DPT: 28.82 / 30.68
CPT: 2.25

These numbers for the Warlock are based on it using standard missiles. It's true that these numbers would change while using heavy or flash missiles, but the range also changes which means you won't get to shoot as often and that pretty much evens it out...pretty much. Also take note that these numbers include the heavy pulse cannons whose range is 12" and the railguns whose range is 20" meaning that neither of these weapons are always guaranteed to be put into use. But these numbers do show that the Warlock a fair amount of more firepower in the front arc if its beam can hit, otherwise the Young far outclasses it. Just a simple note to take into account since everyone likes using the Warlocks superior firepower as it's bargaining chip

 

[Shadow Queen]

Well possibly. But if people are asking the question "does it stop crits" then they must be doing something wrong. So an explaination is a good thing.

can you discribe the / run through the stop crits please mate.

something like

a dd weapon hits, roll as normal, roll causes crit.

roll on crit table?

then apply dammage from the crit roll x2 and the dd from the weapon x of the hits - Sheld capasaty?

 

[Burger]

Roll to hit.
Deduct shields from hits, each DD hit takes off 2 shields, TD takes off 3, QD takes off 4.
If any hits are remaining, then roll to damage (bulkhead, solid, crit etc).

 

[Shadow Queen]

Roll to hit.
Deduct shields from hits, each DD hit takes off 2 shields, TD takes off 3, QD takes off 4.
If any hits are remaining, then roll to damage (bulkhead, solid, crit etc).

thank you. xx

 

[Da Boss]

Shields stop damage and also prevent critcials from happening whilst they are still active:

ie a Demos fires at a Shadow Scout with its Ion Cannons - 5 hits which are all Double Damage

Normally a hit takes a point off the shield but as its double damage each hit takes 2 pts of the shield

but if only 1 pt of shield remains it still stops a full hit (be that double, triple or quad damage)

so first three hits take down the shields

no criticals are rolled for any of these hits.

the remaining 2 that hit after the shield is brought down inflict damage and criticals like any oither ship

does that help

 

[SylvrDragon]

In short shields are one of the single greatest defensive systems imo. They stop hits dead much like interceptors, but they are much more reliable and they work against any and all damage sources. The only downside is that since you don't roll damage, due to the hit being stopped, there are no bulkheads which means that you do hit them more regularly than you normally would; though this isn't a huge factor imo.

 

[Ragewind]

Well possibly. But if people are asking the question "does it stop crits" then they must be doing something wrong. So an explaination is a good thing.

Considering Shade of Black is in my local gaming group then no, my answer was sufficient because I do know what he was, or was not, doing wrong.

Actually you are thinking of me, I never did post any questions as the few I had about the rules changes from 1st to 2nd were supposedly answered by you. I also would indeed prefer to use ruling in my favor but that sadly cannot always be the case, I take what works and nothing more. Perhaps we should p[lay with terrain next time? Seeing as I never get terrain when I play Shadows since you guys don't want me to hit and run.

I agree with one of the other posters, try taking a differant ship. I don't have that option whereas you do, try giving it a shot.

 

[Ragewind]

3)The rules are a bit hazy for the shadows, can I "Warp in" to the battlefield using Hyperspace Mastery and then on my next turn say "I'm Warping Out". Or can they just choose to leave the turn they come in, effectively a hit and run?

quote]

Well under the heading of Tactical Withdrawl it seems to suggest the ships can leave at any time, although the enemy gets 1/4th victory points.

 

[SylvrDragon]

Seems I made a small ere in a prior post. I made a mistake in identity. Odd how some other random Shadow player asked the exact same question as my friend on the exact same day and roughly the exact time as the conversations between my friend and myself concerning the very same subject...Also the fact that Ragwind, my friend in question, also has made use of the color black, since it's his favorite color, in online names before. Oops...

And as for a different ship, well, I don't really have a choice either. I have 3 wars and only 1 of them offer sufficient firepower to play the role that the Warlock does. I have the Poseidon Super Carrier, name should explain that one clearly enough, and the Omega Command Destroyer. The Omega variant is pretty good, for a converted battle, but less firepower, fewer hit points and all it has to show for it is 1 point higher command, the carrier 2 trait and 1 more interceptor; it also suffers all the same problems as the Warlock against the Shadows. I don't think that limitations on list choices balance anything. So you have only one choice, big deal, if it's better than any other of it's PL than it's still better no matter how many more inferior choices I have.

 

[Ragewind]

You obviously don't know me that well since my Fav color is Blue and Ragewind has been a habit gamertag even on Live which you very well know.

Why would you take a War? IIRC I always took the most damage and faced a far greater threat when fighting multiple ships. I would take that War Point and grab 4+ Raids with missles or something. Unless I get amazingly lucky I will still only be destroying stuff on a 1 for 1 basis with a Shadow Ship. Assuming you take 4 ships thats 4 turns of firing to kill them (assuming they can be killed with one shot with 18 damage being the average) and thats four turns of you shooting back at me.

 

[Ripple]

Shields are only as good as the recharge rate. The abbai have them and have not benefited by the change from interceptors much in my opinion. In the long range slug matches the shields may have an advantage due to these usually being beam exchanges, but up close with the hordes of dice, I'll take the 6+ save of the interceptor vs the fixed number of hits a shield stops. I'll especially take it against any shield system with a recharge of 1 or 2, as the interceptor recharge much better.

Not as good vs some races, but much better against others.

You didn't add in the fighter compliment in your equation of Warlock firepower vs young, it's relevant. Sixteen AD, some with AP, can add a lot. Maybe not on average, but you have to look at both average, crap out and yahtzee to balance things. Beam right now have ungodly moments because the average and crap out in no way balance vs the Yahtzee moments in peoples minds.

And DaBoss was right, the fact that EA have to buy down (like Narn and Drazi) to get the most out of their ships has nothing to do with EA vs Shadows, it's about boresight and initiative sinking... totally different topics.

Also specifically, you can buy down to a battle and two raid vs the shadow and do quite well. So two hyperions and a Marathon. Marathon will move after the shadow ship at least a few times, the hyperions weaker hull 5 is irrelevant and it still has a nice laser, nothing is totally limited to range 12, seems a nice compromise and still has nice looking ships. Add up those output numbers and the Shadow player is likely the one complaining.

Ripple

 

[SylvrDragon]

Indeed, you do make yet another good point Ripple. Make no mistake, just because I don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean I don't respect it. I just need to see the Shadows in action more before changing my opinion, not that I really have what I'd consider to be opinion as of yet, before changing or even forming one rather.

As to the T-Bolts...
DPT: 3.88
CPT: 0.5

That is indeed a noticeable difference, so I have to give that one to you. This still means that the Warlock needs to bring its beam to bear to deal the "real" damage though.

Updated Warlock...

No Beam
DPT: 14.94
CPT: 2

Beam
DPT: 32.7
CPT: 2.75

I didn't bother with crew damage because it's not entirely relevant to this. Besides, there's usually only a point or 2 difference at the most anyway.

Oh, and all the damage analysis I've posted does include the average damage dealt by critical hits. I simply list the number of crits so that the effects of the crits can be taken into account as much as possible.

 

[Taran]

What do you mean by "DPT" and "CPT"?

 

[Sock]

just to put my two cents worth out there, I agree with sylvr, the shadows do seem to be overpowered, however I am not 100% sure i want to continue to test the shadows brokeness, at least not unless I'm on there team.

As a piece of antidotal evidence, in a game played last sunday, gaim and Pak'ma'ra vs shadows, my hurr gunship blown away in one hit, first turn, with something like 96 damage and 126 crew done in one attack, while that may have been a lucky shot thats still messed up.

oh yeah, and, taran, DPT is Damage Per Turn and CPT is Crits Per Turn

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

I think a Poseidon vs a Young Shadow Ship would be interesting. 24 t-bolts should certainly leave a mark (even granting that they would get in each others' way and not all be able to attack).

 

[Hugbiel]

Well I suppose that's what put the shadow under power is that the 2°ed still favor fleet with lot of ships and the shadow only have expensive ones worth taking, so less.