Shadows Q&A

[SylvrDragon]

Well I suppose that's what put the shadow under power is that the 2°ed still favor fleet with lot of ships and the shadow only have expensive ones worth taking, so less.

You're making a very common misconception. The game favoring lower PL ships doesn't make Shadows underpowered. The game favoring lower PL ships makes high PL ships underpowered and the Shadows are simply of of the fleets that are hit harder by it. The problem isn't directly Shadows as far as that's concerned, it's groups of lower PL ships being better than higher PL ships. And you can argue that other fleets have options for taking more lower PL's all you want. The fact is that wars, armageddons and certain battles of many fleets just can't cut it like they should. It's certainly better in this edition than it was in the last, but it's still a problem. I'm a big ship guy. I have access to smaller ships, but I've always liked the idea of big ships and so I tend to have difficulties, especially since my primary fleet has a lot of it's power in boresights, because I just plain don't want to run a massive fleet of patrols and skirmishes.

 

[Ripple]

You don't necessarily have to go all the way down to patrol and skirmishes, but yeah, it would be nice to be able to buy at least at the level of the fight or even up a level without completely hamstringing bore sighted fleets.

Just as a note on the DPT/CPT numbers - what are you using for the crit base number, and are you working the weapons individually? Me and one of the locals often talk about which is more important, the totally average number or the number mostly likely to come up.

Damage and crew can be imporant here as you only need to kill one track, so if the current table favors one type of damage over the other it can scew the average up a bit... and depending on the damage mulitplier that can rapidly toss ships into thresholds.

Specifically not doubting or questioning your numbers, just wonder what you use for those calculations.

Ripple

 

[Taran]

Hell, my second-favourite fleet doesn't have ANYthing higher than Battle Level and the Battle Level it does have isn't worth taking...

 

[H]

yes I have seen Gaim beat shadows. It was a playtest game, but none of the stats have been changed.

no, 2 fleets being able to beat them doesn't make them balanced, but nor does 1 young shadow ship beating a warlock make the shadow broken. tit for tat really, you debunk my theory on the basis that you didn't seem to believe the Gaim thing, I debunk yours because I can name 2 fleets can defeat the "overpowered" shadows.

in conclusion your honour, this is a fleet game, the fleets are "allegedly" balanced. a 1v1 ship comparison will rarely yield accurate results of a fleets balance, therefore, move away from the warlock example, please, and compare a shadow fleet against a fleet, not a 1v1 situation. If you can then show that the shadows still rampage over all, then their is a larger inclination for people to consider the view that the shadows are broken. for example, I would feel mostly confident that ISA, Gain, Drakh have a solid chance in hiugher level engagements, in lower level engagements, with the right fleet choice, I can see the EA doing the job, possibly the Narn and Centauri. Although i don't give a great deal of hope to the abbai or Brakiri doing it.

 

[Taran]

I could just see throwing squadrons of Tethys Laser Boats at a single Shadow Ship. Equal PL even.

1st turn, here come 8 Tethys, in 2 squadrons. They break away and start to circle back while the next couple squadrons come in. They break away and circle back and it's the next set...

Wait, that's 8 Squadrons for War PL. Tethys are fast enough to complete the circle in time to run 4 squadrons at the Shadow every turn...
16 2AD Beams every turn...

 

[Shadow Queen]

I could just see throwing squadrons of Tethys Laser Boats at a single Shadow Ship. Equal PL even.

1st turn, here come 8 Tethys, in 2 squadrons. They break away and start to circle back while the next couple squadrons come in. They break away and circle back and it's the next set...

Wait, that's 8 Squadrons for War PL. Tethys are fast enough to complete the circle in time to run 4 squadrons at the Shadow every turn...
16 2AD Beams every turn...

every other turn

 

[Hash]

Shadows...overpowered? Don't get me started laddie....

Sure, one on one I'd wager money on a Shadow Ship vs. most War level ships...doesn't mean Shadows are better. As has been alluded to, this is a fleet game.

Lots of raid and skirmish ships invariably win out against 1 big ship and that spells doom for Shadows. Not to mention fighters...

 

[SylvrDragon]

To Ripple:

I'm working these numbers base on individual weapon systems based on statistics. What numbers are more likely to come up hasn't been factored because on a single die all numbers have the same chance of coming up. These numbers also, as I previously mentioned, include critical damage. I came up with "average" critical hit damage by a comparison of what critical are most likely to come up and the averaged damage based on all critical hits available. I have all the raw data based on the average damage of each individual table for both damage and crew, as well as the average damage of each individual weapon system per ship. If you like I can send you a PM containing the data? All data I have is only based on the "best" arc of each ship. I haven't gotten into secondary arcs as of yet. I do, however, have numbers on more ships than I have posted here. I have several Narn and Dilgar ships as well and let me tell you the data on the Dilgar is freaking scary.

 

[Taran]

I could just see throwing squadrons of Tethys Laser Boats at a single Shadow Ship. Equal PL even.

1st turn, here come 8 Tethys, in 2 squadrons. They break away and start to circle back while the next couple squadrons come in. They break away and circle back and it's the next set...

Wait, that's 8 Squadrons for War PL. Tethys are fast enough to complete the circle in time to run 4 squadrons at the Shadow every turn...
16 2AD Beams every turn...

every other turn

Every turn. 1 War point of Tethys is 32 Tethys. Divided into 4 ship squadrons is 8 Squadrons. Run 4 Squadrons for a total of 16 ships at the Shadow every turn. That way, while half the fleet is reloading, half is firing.

That's 16 2AD beams for 32 beam dice EVERY turn. (well, minus the 1 ship that gets killed every turn because you're keeping them at least 4 inches apart so the Shadow can't split its beam dice)

 

[SylvrDragon]

Why not fire every other turn and just fry the heck out of the ship the first chance you get? Waiting is hesitating and hesitation isn't wise on the battlefield.

 

[Ripple]

Range, arc and available space I would assume, plus one of the squadrons will be sinking for him.

I see where you went with the stats, I'm doing similar stuff then. My thought on the crit damage was how many times would both the damage and crew be minimal (say 2/2) vs what seemed more common with crits being 1/3 or 4/2 say. At least when I was doing some numbers I had looked at only the high numbers as a way of estimating what PL was likely to suffer sudden death if the ship looked at it wrong. It ups the damage a tweak over average, but beams have been consistently over average around here... and yes boys and girls we do indeed track every beam roll (crit's too in my case).

It sounds like our methods are fairly close, I just tend to slide high on damage due to experience being you can always roll really well with beams, but you can only roll so badly.

Thanks for the info, I'd love to an example of the data if you have time.

As for the Dilgar, yeah... now they scare me...

Ripple

 

[Burger]

Waiting is hesitating and hesitation isn't wise on the battlefield.

Unless you're playing Shadows

 

[Shadow Queen]

Tethys-class Laser boat

Weapons
Range Arc AD
Medium Laser Cannon 15 B 2 Beam, Double Damage, Slow Loading

 

[Burger]

Every turn. 1 War point of Tethys is 32 Tethys.

Nope, it's 24.

Divided into 4 ship squadrons is 8 Squadrons. Run 4 Squadrons for a total of 16 ships at the Shadow every turn. That way, while half the fleet is reloading, half is firing.

That's 16 2AD beams for 32 beam dice EVERY turn. (well, minus the 1 ship that gets killed every turn because you're keeping them at least 4 inches apart so the Shadow can't split its beam dice)

Good luck getting 12 ships more than 4" apart, while all boresighted and within 15" of the target!!! Shadows will win inititive so your attacking force will already likely be a couple of ships down. And where are they going to go next turn... Tethys are not agile, all must move forward half their movement, and then somehow attempt to all get more than 4" away from each other... it's going to be a slaughter next turn. At least 3 will die per turn. And the number that can succcessfully re-target next turn will be much diminished. And all this is assuming the Shadow Ship is just sitting there in the middle of the board, allowing to happen... what if he were to go into an asteroid field, to the edge of the board, get behind the Tethys that were turning around...

True swarm fleets do have a big advantage. But I think in this case, they'd fail.

 

[H]

well, you could take an Admiral with the um, err trait that allows you to have a larger squadron distance

 

[Taran]

1 War=2Battle=4Raid=8Skirmish=16Patrol=32 Tethys at 2/Patrol. (granted, that's without using those weird breakdowns which are a pathetic way to try to reduce the swarm; and the only way I would ever field 32 Tethys would not be in a tournament).

They have 2 45degree turns per turn, that's 180 degrees in 2 turns and with the (lack of) speed on those SM Shadows, I don't worry too much about getting around in time to line up the target. And I would use the guys who weren't firing that turn as the init sinks. And with 8 squadrons vs 1 ship, I think all the ships that are firing are likely to be able to get Boresight.

You probably have a point on the inability of keeping 16 ships 4 inches apart but within 15" of the target and boresighted. That would, indeed, be a challenge...
But by VPs, the Tethys would likely get OWNED. 3VP per versus a plain either 10 or 20 for the Shadow...

 

[H]

you mean the weird official breakdowns?

 

[Burger]

1 War=2Battle=4Raid=8Skirmish=16Patrol=32 Tethys at 2/Patrol.

1 War point gets you 12 Patrol ships, 2 Tethys per patrol choice gives you 24. Read the FAP splitting FAQ?

They have 2 45degree turns per turn, that's 180 degrees in 2 turns and with the (lack of) speed on those SM Shadows, I don't worry too much about getting around in time to line up the target. And I would use the guys who weren't firing that turn as the init sinks. And with 8 squadrons vs 1 ship, I think all the ships that are firing are likely to be able to get Boresight.

That paragraph smacks of someone who has never actually tried it, and has no experience of playing as or against swarm fleets. I play Drazi regularly - it is hard enough keeping 4 or 5 on Boresight and turning round in 2 turns, let alone 12 - and they are Agile!

But by VPs, the Tethys would likely get OWNED. 3VP per versus a plain either 10 or 20 for the Shadow...

That is true - though it's only 1 VP per Tethys at War level.

 

[Taran]

1 War=2Battle=4Raid=8Skirmish=16Patrol=32 Tethys at 2/Patrol.

1 War point gets you 12 Patrol ships, 2 Tethys per patrol choice gives you 24. Read the FAP splitting FAQ?

Yeah, I did. And in any tourney, I'll comply (the fleets I actually would use most times would comply anyway). But it's as bad, if not worse than CBT's increased bv for swarms. It doesn't solve the problem and only adds a new formula (in this case, Several new formulas) to memorize or work out every time). And if I'm going to break out something like this, well...

That paragraph smacks of someone who has never actually tried it, and has no experience of playing as or against swarm fleets. I play Drazi regularly - it is hard enough keeping 4 or 5 on Boresight and turning round in 2 turns, let alone 12 - and they are Agile!

True enough. Like I said, the fleets I have used so far and would use normally, otherwise would be pretty normal. I'm not real big on min-maxing except when I just want to be annoying.

But by VPs, the Tethys would likely get OWNED. 3VP per versus a plain either 10 or 20 for the Shadow...

That is true - though it's only 1 VP per Tethys at War level.[/quote]
10 or 20 for the Shadow. 10 for War, 20 for Battle. 3 for the Tethys if it's a 2Pt Battle.

 

[Burger]

So you're saying that if you ignore the rules and use your own FAP splitting, then 1 FAP of Tethys could beat a Shadow ship? Err... OK. Meanwhile, back in reality...

Swarm fleets is not always mini-maxing. Like I said, I am a regular Drazi player. I have won a tournament with them, and come almost bottom with them. But, there are always problems lining up boresights and turning round in time - and they are Agile. Its all very well to say 2x 45 turns can turn 180 in 2 turns, but your target is moving all the time. It just doesn't work like that in practice. Some will manage to turn around, others won't. You'll be split up, scattered across the board, and thats only with 8-10 ships. With 24 it'll be a right mess.

Playing at War level, Shadow Ship is worth 10 VP, Tethys is worth 1 each (total of 24).
At Battle level, Shadow Ship is 20 VP, Tethys is 2 each (total of 48).