Shadows playtest changes

[Burger]

Shadow fighters now have shields working in dogfights and against AF. And there was much rejoicing!!!

But whats with the stalker. One more AD is exactly what it didn't need. It needs more survivability. I'd suggest back to hull 5, re-gain stealth 5, and go up to 40 damage (giving it a pinning value of 10).

 

[Silvereye]

I posted a couple of space station/shadow related questions in the space station thread, but there are a couple of bits that interract with the general shadow rules, so I'll post them here for completeness.

Can a Shadow Station use Hyperspace Mastery? At least to escape, certainly allowing them to enter a fight this way would just be rude.

Can a Shadow Station merge with Shadow Vessels?

 

[katadder]

I would say no to the mastery but cant confirm that. but as it cant move dont see how it could fade out.

definate no to merging as the ships merging have to be the same or variants of.

 

[CZuschlag]

Stations don't have access to Special Actions, so I don't think they can do Hyperspace Mastery.

As I read merging, I think the answer is no. Merging vessels must be of the same hull type, and it is not permitted to have more than 1 base present at any given battle.

 

[Burger]

So... back to the Stalker...

 

[Clanger]

Compare the Stalker to the Vorlon Destroyer.

It has a better hull, faster, SM, Dodge and Shields.

It looses in Damage, AD on beam weapon is lower but is Triple damage and a reduced range.

To me this seems balanced compared with the Vorlon.

 

[CZuschlag]

Let's see if it's balanced as is before cracking open the idea of design philosophy; that's a Game Designer's prerogative. The combat philosophy may not be what we want, but it might be balanced.

Let's try 5 Stalkers against:

--- 5 Primus
--- 5 Tikrit
--- 5 Tinashi
--- 5 White Star Gunships
--- 5 Omegas
--- 5 Vorlon Destroyers

and see how it does as a unit test. (2+ games, each., 12 tests net). Then, if the success rate seems good and the game is fair, let's proceed to the breakdown test of 12 games

--- 10 Hyperion
--- 10 Targrath
--- 10 Teshlan
--- 10 Xill (not the Whitestar, it's being modified already ... one test at a time!)
--- 10 Centurion
--- 10 Ria'stor Gris (no Vorlon at Raid.)

I've selected these hulls as being representative of Raid and Battle level without being either considered spectacularly "uber" or "unter". (You could claim the Targrath is on the high side, I grant.)

For the purposes of this test, we definitely want the Shadow Antifighter in scope --- how about the Shadow merging? Want to leave that out for now, or in?

 

[Burger]

The Vorlon is much more survivable than the Stalker. Adaptive Armour gives it an effective 70 hit points, plus self-repair is twice as good because of AA. The Shadow has 35 if you include shields. Shield regen approximately equals the Vorlon's self-repair bonus. So overall the Vorlon is twice as hard to kill.

Hull 6 is nowhere near as useful as it used to be, with the beam changes. Yes it has SM, that should count for something. But I don't think those 2, are enough. IMO it should go back to its Scout roots, just a bit heavier and with different weapon.

 

[Funbeast]

I have to agree with Burger on this, the Stalker just doesn't have the survivability of it's Vorlon counterpart.
I tried the new fighters and anti-fighter defenses and i like what i see.

 

[Scipio]

I must agree with Burger as well.

With one extra AD for the Stalker I still don't see much chance that I will use the Stalkers over the Shadow ships that have 3 times more hits and is less likley to get pinned which is usually a big deal in the game. Or that I will run the Stalker instead of Scouts as the Stalker is actually more likley to get pinned than the Scout after the first round of combat...and that would mean two raidpoints doing nothing, If I instead had two Scouts in which case only one would do nuthin...

 

[Triggy]

There are two problems with balancing the Stalker - firstly the Damage value won't change as it's a varient of the Scout and wherever possible variants don't have these scores changed. Secondly P&P is aiming to avoid big changes to ship stats if possible.

However, instead of the +1AD, how about getting Stealth 5+ (alone - really, it doesn't need huge amounts of boosting!)

BTW, with Dodge and Hull 6, the combination of the Self-Repair and Shields are almost twice as good as the Vorlon Destroyer's Self-Repair. The trick is keeping them alive long enough, which I admit can be hard. The real balancing issue this creates with the Stalker is that with huge regeneration if you can keep it alive for a few turns it means that in low PL games (e.g. Skirmish) that the Stalker almost cannot be killed. Making it more survivable in a straightforward way was not something too desirable for this reason.

 

[Burger]

As Scipio said the biggest problem I see is the low pinning value. You say variants try to maintain the same damage value... yet they can have different hull value? That doesn't really make sense. Besides surely the ancient shadow ship is simply a variant of the young (or vice versa)... they have different damage values. Why can't Scout/Stalker follow similar pattern? ie. Stalker is a grown up version of the scout.

 

[Triggy]

As Scipio said the biggest problem I see is the low pinning value. You say variants try to maintain the same damage value... yet they can have different hull value? That doesn't really make sense. Besides surely the ancient shadow ship is simply a variant of the young (or vice versa)... they have different damage values. Why can't Scout/Stalker follow similar pattern? ie. Stalker is a grown up version of the scout.

We could always change the pinning value (to zero?)...

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Personally i didn't feel an increase in weapons was nessecary just give it stealth 5+.
Or even 4+.
As why would a variant loose something that was actually beneficial in the original design. Thats just mad.

 

[l33tpenguin]

There are two problems with balancing the Stalker - firstly the Damage value won't change as it's a varient of the Scout and wherever possible variants don't have these scores changed. Secondly P&P is aiming to avoid big changes to ship stats if possible.

However, instead of the +1AD, how about getting Stealth 5+ (alone - really, it doesn't need huge amounts of boosting!)

BTW, with Dodge and Hull 6, the combination of the Self-Repair and Shields are almost twice as good as the Vorlon Destroyer's Self-Repair. The trick is keeping them alive long enough, which I admit can be hard. The real balancing issue this creates with the Stalker is that with huge regeneration if you can keep it alive for a few turns it means that in low PL games (e.g. Skirmish) that the Stalker almost cannot be killed. Making it more survivable in a straightforward way was not something too desirable for this reason.

I understand keeping variants similar to their original hull, but I think with the shadows an exception to this could be made. Their ships are, after all, grown. In my opinion the two levels of 'Shadow Ship' are just the exact same ships, only one is older (as even their name implies). To have the Stalker as a stronger, larger version of the scout seems perfectally reasonable.

 

[AdrianH]

As Scipio said the biggest problem I see is the low pinning value. You say variants try to maintain the same damage value... yet they can have different hull value? That doesn't really make sense. Besides surely the ancient shadow ship is simply a variant of the young (or vice versa)... they have different damage values. Why can't Scout/Stalker follow similar pattern? ie. Stalker is a grown up version of the scout.

We could always change the pinning value (to zero?)...

Which means if the ship has taken zero damage, it's pinned. Watch as even the people who had thought about using Stalkers suddenly lose interest. :lol:

Hull value is irrelevant against an enemy with all or mostly beam weapons. So if the damage and shield values aren't changed then it's a 25/7 ship with 5 point shields (after they've been knocked down during the first round of firing). Even if it gets the same Stealth 5+ trait as the Scout, I probably still wouldn't use it in a low level game for the reason given by Scipio - the same damage that will pin a Scout will also pin a Stalker, but if I take two Scouts then one of them is still fighting.

But now consider the revised FAP system. In a War level game, one FAP gets you two Stalkers or three Scouts. Or you split it into two Battle FAP's for a Stalker and two Scouts. Which means you're now effectively choosing between one Stalker and one Scout, and suddenly it becomes worth considering.

And it will be interesting to see how the upgraded Stalker fares against enemies with non-beam weapons, especially now that it can defend itself against fighters...

Next question - battles in hyperspace. Given hyperspace mastery, should the Shadows need to make the same rolls to maintain lock-on to navigation beacons? If not, do they get the extra Experience Die for surviving a hyperspace battle in a campaign?

 

[Shut Up Hippie!]

I'm with Burger, the stalker should have hull 5, Stealth 5+, and damage of 40.

At present the Stalker isn't worth taking in a game over scouts!

Shadow ships are suppose to be hard as nails!

 

[l33tpenguin]

Next question - battles in hyperspace. Given hyperspace mastery, should the Shadows need to make the same rolls to maintain lock-on to navigation beacons? If not, do they get the extra Experience Die for surviving a hyperspace battle in a campaign?

oooh! Good catch. All evidence points to the fact that the shadows have no need of hyperspace beacons.

 

[Triggy]

I'm with Burger, the stalker should have hull 5, Stealth 5+, and damage of 40.

At present the Stalker isn't worth taking in a game over scouts!

Shadow ships are suppose to be hard as nails!

If you can convince Matt of these changes by getting enough support behind it then I actually have little issue with making it have these defensive stats but keeping the same gun Basically it has more Damage (and a Pinning score of 10) and a better Self-Repair and Shields than the Scout... sounds like a bigger/older Scout to me

 

[Burger]

sounds like a bigger/older Scout to me

Precisely I thought that was what it is meant to be originally :lol:

Well most people on this thread seem to like my suggestions