Shadow Omega's
- Thread starter skavendan
- Start date
Da Boss said:hmm its does not self reapir, has no flight computer, no defences , no AJP, low AF, much less damage /crew Not really better as it has one extra fighter, 2 troops and 1 turn more. :?
I hardly think the 6 AD missiles trump 6 dice interceptors!!! Which are also Slow loading so prob 1 shot at you.
the Shadow Omega is even the same speed - it has more chance of getting into range of firing as its bigger and harder to kill.
Will it get a chance to self repair after a 12AD beam? Most likely not a good few crits and it's buggered and then the missile rack fires and does some more crits.
O and the fighters would have taken the interceptor value down but I don't want to factor that in because then you have to include the thunderbolts and your getting away from the point of the shadow omega.
Either way your comparing a carrier to a battle ship and my money is still on that carrier as it's not lumbing it's easier for it to avoid a B arc attack.
Da Boss said:so you would not prefer 4 Firehawks or a Stormfalcon and 2 Firehawks
Also guess you bought a new one for your campaign fleet then? :wink:
Er, no. Not bought a new one, won't do either, and my fully-painted Fireraptor is finally serving a valuable purpose - holding my notes on intellectual property litigation in one place.
I'll be sticking to my Takata (Minbari must HATE that ship...) and Juyaca (the only pacifist vessel in history to cause spontaneous incontinence) in future, having learnt my lesson!
In all seriousness, the Fireraptor just won't live long enough to get within range. It doesn't have enough damage, it doesn't have interceptors, it doesn't have shields and a couple of missile rack shots (which are all it managed to fire in its last and probably final engagement) just don't seem worth it, when Stormfalcons, Firehawks and Warbirds can pelt down flanks. I'd field the Shadow Omega anytime, even though I personally think sticking a few spines on it turned a fairly cool ship into a laughing stock...
The White Stars are easy as they all form up in a flying wedge/cross formation actually and are all on screen at once in the first charge.skavendan said:
The Shadow Omegas are a little harder as they are only all seen in pan shots but you only ever see six distinct ships and the same number of "death scenes" for them.
skavendan said:Da Boss said:hmm its does not self reapir, has no flight computer, no defences , no AJP, low AF, much less damage /crew Not really better as it has one extra fighter, 2 troops and 1 turn more. :?
I hardly think the 6 AD missiles trump 6 dice interceptors!!! Which are also Slow loading so prob 1 shot at you.
the Shadow Omega is even the same speed - it has more chance of getting into range of firing as its bigger and harder to kill.
Will it get a chance to self repair after a 12AD beam? Most likely not a good few crits and it's buggered and then the missile rack fires and does some more crits.
O and the fighters would have taken the interceptor value down but I don't want to factor that in because then you have to include the thunderbolts and your getting away from the point of the shadow omega.
Either way your comparing a carrier to a battle ship and my money is still on that carrier as it's not lumbing it's easier for it to avoid a B arc attack.
first both beams are not precise - makes a hug difference and only one is triple damage - exactly the same as the Omegas.
Yes I do think it will be around - if the beam does not roll stupidly high - if it gets its 12 or so hits - and a couple of crits the SO should be fine, remember if it rolls any 1's that is down to 1 damage not 3. Also it has to be within 15" to get both beams in.
I did not include fighters as they should be matched by the SO's ones - Drazi fighters are not that superior in dogfights?
the Psi Corps In is higher so more chance to fire first after moving last.
Also the FireRaptor is not a specialised carrier at War - that would be the Posideon with which it shares few similaities - two Night Falcons are far superior.
Last question -if both ships are trying to attack an enemey - which do you think will survive longer - the one with more damage/crew, interceptors and self repair plus a flight computer perhaps?
Triggy said:Indeed, 24 White Stars against 6 Shadow Omegas. Just think of all those initiative sinks
As I recalled the discussion about the Shadow-Omega/Omega-X fleet, they specifically mentioned that Ivanova would be outnumbered. Sufficiently so that they were sending her instead of their normal fleet because they were afraid they'd lose all of their Earth ships (and they had gathered quite a few at that point.
But, no worries. I'm watching it again today, so I'll report back in whether I'm right or wrong.
And unlike some people here, I don't rely on onscreen counts. Star Wars cured me of that. Or do you believe the original Death Star and its entire fighter garrison was destroyed by less than 20 rebel fighters?
Da Boss said:
:twisted: love a good debate!
Ok 1 Is tripple damage same as omega. Neither precise as you pointed out.
Also am aware how beam damage work with tripple damage my hunters have Tripple too. so one's aside it's nasty. No garantee of crit's but when it rain's it pores!
Right onto attacking bit assuming they both come to bear on each other the Fireraptor makes sure all it's weapons are in range. I'd expect an averaging damage please note at this point I am not using the law of averages dice some times are either against you or with you so i'll just estimate am not working it out exactly but this is what i would expect on a average day.
Also having the initiative doesn't always work so Psi has +3 that doesn't always mean you win your dice off.
Tripple beam = 12 hits, 36 damage
Single beam = 12 hits, 12 damage
Particle Repeater = 6 Hits, lets say the interceptors stop them all.
Heavy Particle Blaster = 3 Hits, 4 damage, 1 is stopped.
Missile Rack = 3 Hits, 3 damage
Thats 61 damage assuming no crits which is unlikely leaving a Shadow omega on 14 damage.
Not far off destroyed and were assuming here the target wasn't marked by a scout or on concentrate all fire power. Which in all reality it would have been. Ok lets apply the same kind of damage on the other side.
Shadow Omega fires on Fireraptor
Molecular Slicer Beam = 12 hits, 36 damage
Light Multi-Phased Cutter = 4 hit's with a reroll that's fairly decent.
40 Damage leaving the Fireraptor on 21 again assuming no criticals but then again the Shadow Omega has no precise weapon.
So in conclusion from my perspective. If the Fireraptor has re-roll for the missile rack it could potentially finish off the Shadow Omega with crit's. Assuming the person who fire's the weapon's make sure he grinds down the interceptors first.
Were as the shadow omega has little advantage to getting that close to an enemy ship and as it's lumbingering it would struggle to stop an enemy ship getting up close and personal. Pretty much only take a "all ahead full" we have them now!
At the end of the day it comes down to the roll of the dice. Nothing wrong with theorising but no1 has yet to say I took one and managed to do x which is what I was after from this topic at the start.
dag'karlove
Mongoose
@skaven
I took one and Wrecked a Victory with it. It took a pretty good beating and kept on coming. I like Teh shadow Omega and I think that it is a very Viable War choice for the fleet that it is a part of. And That flanked with 2 Hunters is a nasty nasty Combo.
@Taran Watch Starwars again too. Its 30 Fighters The imperial Officer says it to Vader as vader is loading up the 501st Tie Wing.
I took one and Wrecked a Victory with it. It took a pretty good beating and kept on coming. I like Teh shadow Omega and I think that it is a very Viable War choice for the fleet that it is a part of. And That flanked with 2 Hunters is a nasty nasty Combo.
@Taran Watch Starwars again too. Its 30 Fighters The imperial Officer says it to Vader as vader is loading up the 501st Tie Wing.
skavendan
First, having a +1 (or +2) in a 2d6 roll is significant as far as who has initiative. Don't just toss it out as nothing, especially as both ships are boresighted, losing initiative means no shot.
Second, I understand your being precise in your math but maybe something even close to reality for the comparison would be nice.
Fireraptor
TD beam = 6 dice = 6 hits normally so 16 damage plus a crit
SD beam = 6 dice = 6 hits normally so 5 damage plus a crit
Particle Repeater = 10 dice of TWL = 3 hits average, all blocked
Heavy Particle Blaster = 8 dice of DD = 2 hits (generous), blocked
Missile Rack = 6 dice SAP/Precise = 3 hits so 3 damage plus a crit
Total = about 24 damage plus 15 or so in crit damage = 39 plus effects
Shadow Omega
TD beam = 6 dice = 6 hits or 16 damage plus a crit
Light MPC = 4 dice MB/TWL = 3 hits = 3 damage
Total = about 19 damage plus one effect
Now that assumes one shot at range 8, but more likely you'll be taking the shot from closer to 12 with a follow up shot. Given that two, and the best two weapons on the Fireraptor are slow loading, I'd be willing to be the second turn puts the SO on top, depending on the extra crit affects. Especially given no single crit can really stop the SO from firing something cool.
Your outright doubling of the damage from the beams skews the picture to make thresholding either ship seem inevitable, and overlooks the short range on some of the 'raptors weapons.
And all of that completely ignores that while the 'raptor is doing that to you, it is doing nothing else, the SO may very well be firing to both sides doing significantly more damage to an enemy fleet.
Not saying I think the SO is good, for war I think it needs some long range fire capacity or more speed or better ability to take a punch, but let's keep the perspective. It's not that weak, and makes an excellent short range brawler... if I could do only one thing with it I might simply un-bore the beam... let it really shine in it's primary role.
Ripple
First, having a +1 (or +2) in a 2d6 roll is significant as far as who has initiative. Don't just toss it out as nothing, especially as both ships are boresighted, losing initiative means no shot.
Second, I understand your being precise in your math but maybe something even close to reality for the comparison would be nice.
Fireraptor
TD beam = 6 dice = 6 hits normally so 16 damage plus a crit
SD beam = 6 dice = 6 hits normally so 5 damage plus a crit
Particle Repeater = 10 dice of TWL = 3 hits average, all blocked
Heavy Particle Blaster = 8 dice of DD = 2 hits (generous), blocked
Missile Rack = 6 dice SAP/Precise = 3 hits so 3 damage plus a crit
Total = about 24 damage plus 15 or so in crit damage = 39 plus effects
Shadow Omega
TD beam = 6 dice = 6 hits or 16 damage plus a crit
Light MPC = 4 dice MB/TWL = 3 hits = 3 damage
Total = about 19 damage plus one effect
Now that assumes one shot at range 8, but more likely you'll be taking the shot from closer to 12 with a follow up shot. Given that two, and the best two weapons on the Fireraptor are slow loading, I'd be willing to be the second turn puts the SO on top, depending on the extra crit affects. Especially given no single crit can really stop the SO from firing something cool.
Your outright doubling of the damage from the beams skews the picture to make thresholding either ship seem inevitable, and overlooks the short range on some of the 'raptors weapons.
And all of that completely ignores that while the 'raptor is doing that to you, it is doing nothing else, the SO may very well be firing to both sides doing significantly more damage to an enemy fleet.
Not saying I think the SO is good, for war I think it needs some long range fire capacity or more speed or better ability to take a punch, but let's keep the perspective. It's not that weak, and makes an excellent short range brawler... if I could do only one thing with it I might simply un-bore the beam... let it really shine in it's primary role.
Ripple
+3 to a roll of possibly 2-12 is too random to say yeah you will def get init
Thats all said and good but you can not just say 6AD beam with do 6 hits.It's way more random than that. I mean I have managed to get 17 hits from a 4AD beam on more than 1 occassion...
You also can not estimate damage on a crit if you get a 6/6 then it does masses of damage.
Am not saying it's completely worthless ship. I expect in a jump point game it could be rather nasty in the middle of an enemy fleet.
But you have to over come this max weapon range of 18" with a lumbering ship which isn't easy. It's not even that fast.
Thats all said and good but you can not just say 6AD beam with do 6 hits.It's way more random than that. I mean I have managed to get 17 hits from a 4AD beam on more than 1 occassion...
You also can not estimate damage on a crit if you get a 6/6 then it does masses of damage.
Am not saying it's completely worthless ship. I expect in a jump point game it could be rather nasty in the middle of an enemy fleet.
But you have to over come this max weapon range of 18" with a lumbering ship which isn't easy. It's not even that fast.
:twisted: love a good debate! .[/quote]
skavendan said:
Hmm not really
a 6 AD beam should on average (not that it does usually but hey) 6 hits so
Triple beam - 6 hits (one dink and 1 ctit) so 16 damage and 1 crit (tripled)Single beam - 6 hits (one dink and 1 crit) so 5 damage and 1 crit
starts to look a little different now?
