Fyrestryke
Mongoose
TheAuldGrump said:
Nah, you're OK.
It's actually quite fitting since "Con Artist" is one of the options available in The Professional "PrC".
Nah, you're OK.
It's actually quite fitting since "Con Artist" is one of the options available in The Professional "PrC".
TheAuldGrump
Mongoose
The King said:
No, witchcraft, as defined in the Old Testament, is gaining power and/or knowledge from sources other than God. Necromancy, the gaining of knowledge from the spirits of the dead, was the most common form. For an example look to the tale of the Witch of Endor, the necromancer sought out by King Saul. She is surprisingly a rather nice person as described, who's last words to King Saul as he stumbled out of her house having been cursed by the ghost he had her summon, were along the lines of 'you're too skinny, you need to eat more.'
For what it is worth the name 'Lucifer' or 'Morning Star' was first mentioned in the Bible used in flattery of one the kings of Babylon 'how art thou fallen from Heaven Lucifer' was to indicate that the king shown like the morning star. The name was later used for Satan, who in his first appearance in the Bible is described as 'a member of God's Court' in the Book of Job. People change things over the centuries. And some parts were modified in councils over the course of the centuries that Judaism has survived.
Editing continued (and in fact continues to this day) under Christianity, the Christians did cheat in the translation of 'Thou suffer not a witch to live' however, from the Hebrew it more closely translates to 'thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.' that little change was instigated by King James, who had a thing about witchcraft, executing more 'witches' in his first year on the throne than were executed in the entire reign of Queen Elizabeth. King James, that boy buggerer, is not one of my favorite people in history.
Sorry about that, did a paper on the subject once, now over twenty years ago.
The Auld Grump
Brass Jester
Mongoose
Sounds like we've got some good characters going here for NPC's Anyone care to stat them up?
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Thanks for the information. I never read the bible completely and always stopped just after the genesis.TheAuldGrump said:
Considering the words of Jesus Christ and what has been done by his Christian "followers" since then I wonder whether there is not a "slight" deviation of point of view.
TheAuldGrump
Mongoose
The King said:
Something to bear in mind is that the Christ (Christ is a title, not a name) was in the eyes of Judea's priesthood a heretic, the Old Testament God was big on smiting, short on forgiveness. Strange as it sounds the "followers" of Christianity running around doing people in is largely excused under the old laws rather than the words of the carpenter. So yes, there is a difference in viewpoint, but in the other direction.
Frankly, the Old Testament has some pretty darned grim spots, including one where a barbarian leader came to the current king of Israel with an eye toward marrying a daughter of Israel.
The king replied 'yeah, sure, but you will have to be circumcised first, you and all your men.' Well, the barbarian king said okay, so he and his men were circumcised, and while they were immobilized by the pain of the process the Israelites killed them all.
The lesson to be learned here? People are scum.
For folks running OGL Ancients I would recommend reading the Old Testament, for plotlines if nothing else, whether or not you view it as 'The Good Book' it has some... interesting viewpoints. The important part as far as much of Judeasm is concerned are the laws, but the stories are what you can hang a game on.
And finally, a 'testament' literally translates as 'what I have sworn to on my balls'. And if that don't have a ring for a Conan game, I don't know what does.
And to return to the subject: Has Mongoose confirmed that the miserable so and so stole the map deliberately? (Not that I see any way it could be accidental) And what is the plan concerning him? I have some 2x4s and some rusty nails that you can borrow... A quick visit from Mr. Thumpystick might do him a world of good.
The Auld Grump, sorry about the hijack...
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
I ordered OGL ancients recently. I still don't know if I'll run a campaign but I love the area and its mythos.TheAuldGrump said:
I also purchased Trojan War and Testament (from Green Ronin Publishing). I wouldn't promote these sourcebooks on the Mongoose site, but both are excellent, especially Testament wich gives enormous details on Egypt, Israel, Canaan and Babylon. There are rules for mass battles and for small community management.
Of course there still is the typical D&D features with spells, classes, feats, etc. but on the whole it's impressive.
If Mongoose decides to release more materials for Ancients, I'll jump on it.
and perhaps I'll read the Bible 'till the end for hooks and ideas.
Brass Jester
Mongoose
And to return to the subject: Has Mongoose confirmed that the miserable so and so stole the map deliberately? (Not that I see any way it could be accidental) And what is the plan concerning him? I have some 2x4s and some rusty nails that you can borrow... A quick visit from Mr. Thumpystick might do him a world of good.
The Auld Grump, sorry about the hijack...[/quote]
No, I'd still go for a game of poker :twisted:
The Auld Grump, sorry about the hijack...[/quote]
No, I'd still go for a game of poker :twisted:
msprange said:Onto more jolly matters, we are commissioning a new Shadizar map. I'll make an announcement when it is ready and you will either be able to download it or send in your old map and we'll post you a brand spanking new one
To save the stamps of proud owners of the 1st ed. Shadizar boxed set: what does Mongoose think of sending in a corner of a specified page of one of the books, as the thing was handled with the Atlantean Edition? It is the same quality of proof and saves money.
Besides I'd like to have the old map too - as a nice curiosum. :wink:
XcomSquaddie
Mongoose
René said:msprange said:Onto more jolly matters, we are commissioning a new Shadizar map. I'll make an announcement when it is ready and you will either be able to download it or send in your old map and we'll post you a brand spanking new one
To save the stamps of proud owners of the 1st ed. Shadizar boxed set: what does Mongoose think of sending in a corner of a specified page of one of the books, as the thing was handled with the Atlantean Edition? It is the same quality of proof and saves money.
Besides I'd like to have the old map too - as a nice curiosum. :wink:
Also, what do we have to send in for our free spanking? :twisted:
Hey. It had to be said.
Jason Durall
Mongoose
UncleBear said:
To the left, down the hall, one cross each.
XcomSquaddie
Mongoose
René said:
Yes, but in this case, asking for one was a joke.
And, don't apologize. Personally, my foreign language skills have been picked up from watching childrens videos with my kids...
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi you all.
I've heard of this thread going on and I decided to come along as it touches me somehow. I've been the artist for the maps of "Messantia city of riches" and I didn't take them from anywhere different than my brain and the instructions given by the guys of Mongoose. I say this because someone said at the start that he expected the artist for this book (Messantia) not to be the same one. Well, it's not.
I hope this kind of things not to happen again!
Thanks to all.
Jesus
I've heard of this thread going on and I decided to come along as it touches me somehow. I've been the artist for the maps of "Messantia city of riches" and I didn't take them from anywhere different than my brain and the instructions given by the guys of Mongoose. I say this because someone said at the start that he expected the artist for this book (Messantia) not to be the same one. Well, it's not.
I hope this kind of things not to happen again!
Thanks to all.
Jesus
'Satan' is also a title, in fact an ordinary Hebrew noun meaning 'adversary', and the idea of a single Satan and its conflation with Lucifer is an error made in the early Christian era. The 'God vs the Devil' thing is far more a Persian idea than a Jewish one.
Another scholarly error that became theology, or folklore, and has hard remarkable sticking power is the translators of the King James Bible's mistaken conjecture that the Hebrew name for God, the Tetragrammaton YHVH, is pronounced 'Jehovah'.
Another scholarly error that became theology, or folklore, and has hard remarkable sticking power is the translators of the King James Bible's mistaken conjecture that the Hebrew name for God, the Tetragrammaton YHVH, is pronounced 'Jehovah'.
TheAuldGrump
Mongoose
Faraer said:
'I'. 'J', and 'Y' are all the same letter in Latin - it was only later that a seperate pronunciation of the three took place. For that matter W used to literally be a double U. (And pronounced oo.)
I actually knew that Satan was a title, but misplaced the neurons responsible for remembering it, those neurons have since been fired. The Adversary was a job handed out by God, not a rebellion against him. The angel stuck with the job, an I recall correctly, also changed on occassion. I once saw a description of angels as Gods hitmen... in some ways a fair description.
Yes, the good/evil aspect was largely Zoroasteranism (sp?), Ahura Mazda and Ahriman. Though 'demons' as evil spirits do also occur in the Bible, Asmodeus in the book of Tobit being the one that comes to mind. It was only after Christianity attempted to place these spririts into an heirarchy that the whole thing became the mythology we are familiar with. Babylon, and Persia both left their marks, Llith being one of the most notabe (They are seven, they are seven, they are seven times seven... was a description of the Babylonian 'demons'. (Daemon is actually Greek.))
Oddly, some of the early Christian appearances of Satan took the view that not only might he be forgiven, but that it was inevitable that eventually he would ask forgiveness, and that it would be granted. I have encountered at least one Catholic priest who still holds to this view.
It helps when you realize that much of the 'ending of the world' described in the New Testament actually refers to Rome, not the world in general. But writing about the end of the world was safe, while writing about the end of Rome could get you crucified.
And an amusing detail - Pontius Pilate, the judge who sentenced the Christ to crucifiction was himself eventually brought to trial and allowed to commit suicide - for the crime of leniency. Considering that in all likelyhood the trial was not about claiming to be the Son of God, but rather claiming to be the King of the Jews (there already was one - Herod) the fact that Pilate alowed him a chance to recant that stance was an exception to the Roman norm. They were the people who brought us the word 'decimate', meaning to kill one in ten.
The Auld Grump, one of the descriptions of Pazuzu the demon/god of plague described him as having a 'great sense of humor'...
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
There is an excellent movie from 1977 about the Christ and the reason of his trials: "Jesus of Nazareth" (runtime: 371 min). To prevent a Jewish rebellion, the Romans had to accept and respect the Jewish leaders who were also religious leaders. When the Christ began to perfom his miracles, his was brought in front of the council. There he critized them all because they though there words were almighty for the community and that they were more preoccupied by their position than by their faith. Then he told them he was the son of God.
The fact is that these leaders were fearful that their position as spiritual leaders might be threatened by the word of Jesus who touched more the population than they. So they gave him to the Romans and wanted him crucify for his heresy.
The Romans didn't care about this but they did it because they had to accept the decision of the council. They also knew that Jesus could be a spiritual force that could destabilize the region and the powers in place.
IMO the Jewish leaders didn't recognize one of their prophets and even had him killed. Years later their temple was razed to the ground for the 2nd time and the "independant" Jewish state of Judea was destroyed by the Romans in the 67-70 AD war. The next Jewish state to see the day was in 1948.
As for Satan, the Christians say he was dismembered by archangel Michael when he declared he was equal to God. However the old Testament, Genesis, states that he was dismembered by God Himself and cursed to crawl on the ground forever for having tempted Eva to disobey.
Pazuzu was indeed a demon of the Southern Wind bringing plague and malevolence but he received a propitiatory cult (offerings as a way to prevent him doing bad things) and was invoked by pregnant mothers and mothers (under the form of an amulet/small idol that we can see in the Exorcist movie) as a protection against Lamashtu, Pazuzu's wife, who was a demon of children's plagues and nightmares and was responsible for stillborns. She was also the prefered demon of the witches. The most curious of all is that she was a daughter of Anu.
The fact is that these leaders were fearful that their position as spiritual leaders might be threatened by the word of Jesus who touched more the population than they. So they gave him to the Romans and wanted him crucify for his heresy.
The Romans didn't care about this but they did it because they had to accept the decision of the council. They also knew that Jesus could be a spiritual force that could destabilize the region and the powers in place.
IMO the Jewish leaders didn't recognize one of their prophets and even had him killed. Years later their temple was razed to the ground for the 2nd time and the "independant" Jewish state of Judea was destroyed by the Romans in the 67-70 AD war. The next Jewish state to see the day was in 1948.
As for Satan, the Christians say he was dismembered by archangel Michael when he declared he was equal to God. However the old Testament, Genesis, states that he was dismembered by God Himself and cursed to crawl on the ground forever for having tempted Eva to disobey.
Pazuzu was indeed a demon of the Southern Wind bringing plague and malevolence but he received a propitiatory cult (offerings as a way to prevent him doing bad things) and was invoked by pregnant mothers and mothers (under the form of an amulet/small idol that we can see in the Exorcist movie) as a protection against Lamashtu, Pazuzu's wife, who was a demon of children's plagues and nightmares and was responsible for stillborns. She was also the prefered demon of the witches. The most curious of all is that she was a daughter of Anu.
TheAuldGrump
Mongoose
The King said:
Refering to the serpent as Satan was a later addition. The poor snake was also referred to as Lilith, another Babylonian survival. Me, I suspect that the reference to a serpent was just that, a survival of the earlier form of the myth. The dismemberment (if I recall properly) was added from the time in Egypt, likely a recreation of Osiris. (Who gets my vote for dimmest god ever. Rapes Set's wife, Set fights him and chops him up, his wife puts him back together, and what does he do? Goes and fights Set again, who chops him up... again.) Mythologies evolve over time, shedding their old skins like, well, a serpent.
However, I think we have hijacked this thread long enough, much as I am enjoying the hijack, it doesn't have much to do with the stolen map.
Has Mongoose managed to contact the perp... I mean artist?
The Auld Grump
A
Anonymous
Guest
hey grump,how are you.since you're from maine thought i would let you know that there's a convention coming up this march at the university of maine in farmington.some of us shall be doing some conan and b5 gaming up there.its on march 25th-27th.hope to see you there.as for the artist ,is he ever hoing to see jail time for this. or what.
