Shadizar Boxed Set Map?

[The Warlord]

Whilst I accept that some people may be disappointed, I find many of the comments very poorly considered.

I consider this a pretty arrogant stance. I mean, you may have the time/ability to create your own maps, but we aren't all as privilaged. What time I do have to spend on creating adventures, I place on action and events, with the safe knowledge of being able to look up pre-made maps/technical information. I don't have the time to create everything on my own, otherswise I wouldn't even bother buying anything. :roll:

I'm glad Mongoose is gonna rectify the situation, and expected no less, I just don't see how after the HE/AE fiasco, they let this slip.

The sentiments of Bladerunner and others aren't 'poorly considered', 'whiney', or 'depressing'. We just happen to be customers that don't have unlimited funds to 'use maps as dart-boards', or buy high dollar faulty game products.

 

[Bjorn the Barbarian]

I am willing to wait for Mongoose to make this map thing right.
So far I have been happy with their products.

 

[Brass Jester]

Hi guys,

and we'll post you a brand spanking new one

So thats why they call it Shadizar the Wicked

 

[The King]

Hey all! There is already a map of Shadizar on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44114&item=5953642032&rd=1
:lol: :lol:

 

[Mayhem]

You know, I've not seen many "Shadizar map sucks!" or "Shadizar has canals? WTF?" threads.

Which can only lead me to the conclusion that the vast majority of the complainers did not have any great problem with the map.

But then, on Feb 03, 2005 at 1:53 pm, it was pointed out to them it was a knock-off. Not that it was totally un-recognisable as Shadizar, but that it was a knock off.

At which point, not only did the map suddenly became so bad, so unusable, that it worthless, it also somehow obtained a negative value - allowing it to render not only itself worthless, but also, somehow, make the 3 books, 4 other maps, the counters and the NPC cards worthless too.

:roll:

Having a map that isn't what it should be is a valid complaint.

(although as I mentioned before, nobody seemed to be making the complaint before the sharp-eyed warhoonslayer pointed out that the same map appeared elsewhere. Which kind of indicates that the map serves perfectly well as Shadizar.)

But to claim that the entire box-set is rendered worthless by the presence of this map is *not* a valid complaint, and it comes across more like the plainative whining of a spolied child than the perfectly valid consumer complaint of a grown adult.

 

[Padre]

I was going to order Shadizar this week, but I think I'll wait and see if Mongoose releases the box with a proper map (though I will buy it eventually, even if sending the canal-city map to Mongoose is the only solution). It's not a big deal, but at some point, somebody should take this map and say "Guys, this map doesn't fit Shadizar at all!". And yes, a huge water canal would be mentioned in the supplement text, because it's the main goddamn feature of the city on the map! I mean, it's like writing about Giza (or Cairo) and not mentioning any pyramids.

Let's just hope Messantia is okay.

 

[Brass Jester]

Well said , Mayhem!

 

[InfinityDoctor]

I picked up Shadizar regardless of these map shennanigans, and it really is ace. The content of the books and remainder of the box far outweigh the offending item in terms of value believe me.

I suppose it depends on how you run your games. If you need a map that pinpoints the location of every building, and carefully track your PCs movements on it with counters, then yes, it might be a problem.

I thought most people these days though (myself included) went for a more cinematic approach in their games? You need to know roughly where things are in relation to each other for consistency (and you can get this from the books), but most of the time you're making scenery details up on the fly and keeping the game flowing. This flexibility also lets you add your own locations and touches to the city without worrying about assigning a specific building to them.

It just seems unfair that some people are dismissing an otherwise excellent product on the grounds of a component that I personally wouldn't use much anyway...

 

[SableWyvern]

I certainly think the map should not have made it into the box. My first impression, before I knew it was a knock-off, was that it was far too small for a city of 40,000, and didn't really fit the city's description in Road of Kings.

All that aside though, it seems that this was a mistake that any game company could have made, although I hope that Mongoose will in future take greater care to ensure that maps and other oddments mesh more closely with the text.

Certainly, I think anyone trying to blame Mongoose for the fact that the map was plagairised is not living in reality.

What is most important to me is that Mongoose has taken quick, and what appear will be effective, steps to solve the issue in this instance. I will be buying Shadizar shortly, and although sending my map off for a replacement will be a hassle, I have no doubt that that little bit of extra effort on my behalf will be worth the value I get from the product.

 

[The King]

Let's just hope Messantia is okay.

We know at least that Messantia doesn't have any city wall. Then of course if the released city map looks like the crusader krak, we'll know it's not representative.

 

[Padre]

We know at least that Messantia doesn't have any city wall. Then of course if the released city map looks like the crusader krak, we'll know it's not representative.

Well, you never know. Nobody said there are no canals in Shadizar, but nobody said that Messantia wasn't built around an active volcano either.

 

[Pharoah Kromium]

Whilst I accept that some people may be disappointed, I find many of the comments very poorly considered.

I consider this a pretty arrogant stance. I mean, you may have the time/ability to create your own maps, but we aren't all as privilaged. What time I do have to spend on creating adventures, I place on action and events, with the safe knowledge of being able to look up pre-made maps/technical information. I don't have the time to create everything on my own, otherswise I wouldn't even bother buying anything. :roll:

I'm glad Mongoose is gonna rectify the situation, and expected no less, I just don't see how after the HE/AE fiasco, they let this slip.

The sentiments of Bladerunner and others aren't 'poorly considered', 'whiney', or 'depressing'. We just happen to be customers that don't have unlimited funds to 'use maps as dart-boards', or buy high dollar faulty game products.

My apologies if my comments seemed arrogant, in fact I have limited time and well below average income.
There were two points I was attempting to make, I'll deal with the map first: Vincent's text contains little direct geographical description, there are, in fact, encouragements to GMs to use their imaginations and creativity to put more flesh on the bones of the outline given in Book One of the set.
The map itself has four gates - as described in the text, and the various quarters of the city labelled - as described in the text. I fail to see how anyone at Mongoose was supposed to know that the artist had pulled a fast one. As Mayhem so succinctly points out - there seemed to have been no problem with the map till the deception was spotted - then the squealing began.
My other point was more about the philosophy of RPGing. We're dealing with an imaginary place, what's more in this instance one only mentioned a few times by Howard and never described. The books in the Shadizar Box are there to stimulate GMs in creating an exciting and vibrant background for their players to experience; however good Vincent's work there will still need to be some imagination and effort from GMs and players to get the best out of them. To me that's what role-playing's about - imagination.
Anyone expecting a detailed street by street description and notated map of the same would have been sorely disappointed - in my case I would have been disappointed if that's what I had got as I want to give my players my vision of what Shadizar is like using the ideas I like from the set, disregarding others; I want to role-play not rule play.
If I or my players are to get the most out of a session I believe I need to put some effort into it, yes, pre-made material can be useful but are no substitute for spontaneity and imagination.

 

[Bregales]

Whilst I accept that some people may be disappointed, I find many of the comments very poorly considered.

I consider this a pretty arrogant stance. I mean, you may have the time/ability to create your own maps, but we aren't all as privilaged. What time I do have to spend on creating adventures, I place on action and events, with the safe knowledge of being able to look up pre-made maps/technical information. I don't have the time to create everything on my own, otherswise I wouldn't even bother buying anything. :roll:

I'm glad Mongoose is gonna rectify the situation, and expected no less, I just don't see how after the HE/AE fiasco, they let this slip.

The sentiments of Bladerunner and others aren't 'poorly considered', 'whiney', or 'depressing'. We just happen to be customers that don't have unlimited funds to 'use maps as dart-boards', or buy high dollar faulty game products.

My apologies if my comments seemed arrogant, in fact I have limited time and well below average income.
There were two points I was attempting to make, I'll deal with the map first: Vincent's text contains little direct geographical description, there are, in fact, encouragements to GMs to use their imaginations and creativity to put more flesh on the bones of the outline given in Book One of the set.
The map itself has four gates - as described in the text, and the various quarters of the city labelled - as described in the text. I fail to see how anyone at Mongoose was supposed to know that the artist had pulled a fast one. As Mayhem so succinctly points out - there seemed to have been no problem with the map till the deception was spotted - then the squealing began.
My other point was more about the philosophy of RPGing. We're dealing with an imaginary place, what's more in this instance one only mentioned a few times by Howard and never described. The books in the Shadizar Box are there to stimulate GMs in creating an exciting and vibrant background for their players to experience; however good Vincent's work there will still need to be some imagination and effort from GMs and players to get the best out of them. To me that's what role-playing's about - imagination.
Anyone expecting a detailed street by street description and notated map of the same would have been sorely disappointed - in my case I would have been disappointed if that's what I had got as I want to give my players my vision of what Shadizar is like using the ideas I like from the set, disregarding others; I want to role-play not rule play.
If I or my players are to get the most out of a session I believe I need to put some effort into it, yes, pre-made material can be useful but are no substitute for spontaneity and imagination.

Sound like pretty good replies there. I'm kinda the same as you-I have little time and a game budget, in fact the only buys I make are for Mongoose's Conan rpg line. I haven't run a Conan game since early December due to lack of time. I'm also more of a fastnloose GM, my earliest sessions were totally influenced by the Conan stories, en medias res is my favorite technique. But my party now, by and large, are rules lawyers, so I've had to go against my gut to try to keep on top of them. I'm sure a lot of the posts here are in similar straits.

Nothing blows [your] inertia like describing a chase scene in the twisted streets of some foreign city and having the players say, "Wait, I'm getting out my 3.0 counters, open the battle map and map it out" I prefer cinematic feel, but have been adjusting to this counters feel.

What I'm saying is that, because so many player's/GMs are so ingrained with that OGL need for an EXACTNESS of detail, that they're put off by this map business.

I think some of these posts have been misread, so hope on the one hand that people will relax a little, and am greatly relieved that Mongoose is working on a fix, but most importantly hope the future products like Messantia will be more carefully reviewed before being released.

So enough of this diatribe. If you're the GM, then run YOUR world. If you're a player, either trust your GM or if he's really lost, then offer help without muscling him out of the game. But whatever you are, just HAVE FUN. For 99.9% of us out there, it's a game, not a full-time job, even for a Howard-obsessive fan like myself.

 

[GregLynch]

We know at least that Messantia doesn't have any city wall. Then of course if the released city map looks like the crusader krak, we'll know it's not representative.

Well, you never know. Nobody said there are no canals in Shadizar, but nobody said that Messantia wasn't built around an active volcano either.

I KNEW I was leaving something out of the text...

 

[Padre]

I KNEW I was leaving something out of the text...

That's okay. Every city has a huge canal and an active volcano; it's not worth mentioning

PS. Cheers, Greg! I'm really looking forward to see Messantia. (what's inside the box? same stuff as in Shadizar - 3 books, cards, map, counters?).

 

[charliebananas]

I KNEW I was leaving something out of the text...

That's okay. Every city has a huge canal and an active volcano; it's not worth mentioning

PS. Cheers, Greg! I'm really looking forward to see Messantia. (what's inside the box? same stuff as in Shadizar - 3 books, cards, map, counters?).

Shouldn't that be, 3 books, cards, counters,and a map that has nothing to do with the text! :twisted:

 

[The King]

I have a scoop: Messantia will look like Myth Drannor.

 

[The King]

Hi guys,

Well, you can imagine my feelings towards the artist - heads are going to roll. . .

Some new beheadings? Yeah! As long as it is not my head...

By the way, why don't you use all the French Guillotine? These terrorists of old invented it for that only purpose. There is probably still one somewhere as the death penalty was abolished there in 1981. Let's see the new Mongoose Beheading Videos.

 

[mthomason]

Some new beheadings? Yeah! As long as it is not my head...

By the way, why don't you use all the French Guillotine?

I seem to recall most of the recipients of that particular honour were royalty

 

[Brass Jester]

Some new beheadings? Yeah! As long as it is not my head...

By the way, why don't you use all the French Guillotine?

I seem to recall most of the recipients of that particular honour were royalty

According to my 'Ladybird Book of Mass Purges', the guillotine was invented for chopping firewood 8)