Second Glorantha Preview

[Durand Durand]

That's an Elf, it's also cheesecake. It's not an Aldryami. I'd picture Aldryami as mostly a little more manlike than the preview showed, but Aldryami also come in many forms [much less homogenous than mortal man], in many species, get gnarled with age and disease, transform themselves with magic (barkskin anyone?) and much more. I've got nothing against that pic, it's kinda cool, and great for unsettling players used to D&D elves only.

I think the Aldryami, the dawrves and the UZ should all be somewhat alien to players, and have always tried to make this plain to my players. Sure, on the surface, many things are similar, but sometimes things are startlingly different and offensive.

DD

 

[Enpeze]

Here is a picture of something that would be a little more acceptable.

http://gionco.com/Malos/Une%20Aldryami%20noble%20Civilis%E9e.jpg

http://gionco.com/Malos/Un%20Aldryami%20pr%EAtre%20civilis%E9.jpg

http://gionco.com/malos.htm

Edit again: Warning that the broo pictures are pretty graphic. Although highly acurate in my opinion.

Blech again. Pandering very much to the "pretty" again. Heck, the female archer "elf" there made me remember a quib by my GM many years back. After a a game session that mostly revolved around my young character being seduced, and having sex for the first time he said "And that's why it's called fantasy roleplaying".

What he said in jest, I say about those elf picures

Well said. Tolkiens races should have never been a part of D&D. Damned Gygax!
The inflationary use of these archetypes takes out many fantastic and individual elements fantasy should have and replaces it with generic ones.

Of course one of the successes of the fantasy genre IS to due to the fact that many people likes to identify with members of "uber-species" as Tolkien elves are. They like to be better, faster and much prettier, than they are in their normal lifes. Elves are designed to hug the inferior ego of a player. Thats why you can find those critters everywhere in todays mainstream fantasy genre and nobody cares.

I tend to avoid tolkienoid races in my games. On rare occasions I have to deal with settings in which are those races are regrettably integrated (eg Warhammer). In this case I will mention them, when necessary, but do not allow players to play one.

So, I like of course that Gloranthan elves are in truth Aldryami and are looking like plants. An excellent idea. What I do not like is the fact they have been more like Tolkien elves in the past. And I hate of course the Mostali, which are nothing more than Tolkien dwarfs with slightly different background. Obviously Stafford has been very young as he designed the basics of HIS world. And obviously he was also very impressed from Tolkien.

 

[Archer]

I know how they look in modern fantasy litterature today, and the image associated with the word, as well as the nordic mythology versions.

This assumes that there is one way that they look in modern literature and norse mythology. the word has been applied to many different meanings over the years.

If you are talking mythology, the word has been used to describe many different creatures, yes.
If we are talking the meaning of the word elf in modern fantasy litterature, the word means a human-like creature, often very beautiful (not always so), with pointed ears. This is the definition of the word I am talking about.

I also think that the picture is being taken too seriously. It's probably not even meant to be definitive, just one artist's interpretation. Even if it were there's the possibility that not all elves look that way. It's been stated that elves become more plant-like as they age; perhaps it's a picture of an old elf.

Mark Mohrfield

Perhaps, but I assuming the pictures of each creature is meant to represent a typical member of the species, in the apperance you commonly see them when you meet them.

 

[jorganos]

Uh, you know what elves, Gloranthan or otherwise, look like?

I know how they look in modern fantasy litterature today, and the image associated with the word, as well as the nordic mythology versions.

Nordic mythology alfar aren't very well defined. Back in RQ Vikings, the aldryami made a cover appearance as fairy treefolk appearing humanoid only from the front, while proper alfar were spirit beings, including deceased humans.

Irish mythology has them as the little folk.

I think you are referring to Poul Anderson's image of elves (in his Oberon stories and the "Broken Sword" novel), taken from English folk lore. Hmm, no pointy ears there (or in Tolkien), either.


Modern fantasy literature influenced by D&D, Shannara etc: ok.

Glorantha already has a strong fan following; Heroquest sales are doing quit well.

Mark Mohrfield

Compared to D&D? compared to WFRP? I think you will find them rather small. But then, official numbers will not be available, so we wont know for sure, exactly how big the difference is.

Nothing has many players compared to D&D. About WFRP I'd guess the answer is yes. My point , though, is that by rpg standards Glorantha does have many fans.

Hard to judge, but not at the top, and not at the bottom is a good guess.[/quote]

Fairly high up, at least if you look at the bios of developers. Definitely among the more active fan communities, with more than 13 years of daily e-mail discussions etc., and dedicated biennial UK conventions since 1992 (or 1990 if you count the German RQ conventions, annual, now dubbed "Tentacles"). The US conventions were not quite that successful.

There are also quite big fan groups in France, Finland, Japan, and Spain, with their own foreign language editions. The German Glorantha fan base is not that big (recruited early on from RQ2), but active (annual conventions...). German RuneQuest (3rd Edition) sold about 2500 copies (in addition to several hundred Games Workshop edition copies and a couple of hundred Avalon Hill copies sold in Germany).

Non-Gloranthan or semi-Gloranthan RQ was quite popular over here in Germany at a time, but with a production schedule that made Avalon Hill appear eager, the system failed to compete with the great three fantasy systems of the time (two German ones - DSA and Midgard - followed in popularity by German ed. AD&D - just before World of Darkness hit the market and Trading Card games ruined it).

The organizers of the Tentacles convention, known as "Chaos Society" in the anglophone countries, officially still is registered as "Deutsche RuneQuest Gesellschaft e.V.".


I wonder whether the German RQ2 diehards can somehow be regained into the fold, although I suppose if it isn't in Prax, little chance...

 

[jorganos]

So, I like of course that Gloranthan elves are in truth Aldryami and are looking like plants. An excellent idea. What I do not like is the fact they have been more like Tolkien elves in the past. And I hate of course the Mostali, which are nothing more than Tolkien dwarfs with slightly different background. Obviously Stafford has been very young as he designed the basics of HIS world. And obviously he was also very impressed from Tolkien.

Not true. If Greg had been impressed by Tolkien, we would never have received the uz, but orcs.

Fact is that Greg used the "elves" of Brithos and trolls in early (not too well written) novels before he encountered Tolkien.

About dwarfs: check http://www.glorantha.com/library/elder/dwarfs-dislike.htm before making the accusations. Greg's steampunkster hive mind dwarfs with their stone men, cannon cult slaves and alchemical transformer are in no way similar to Balin Lord of Moria beyond hunched stature and underground dwelling.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

Not true. If Greg had been impressed by Tolkien, we would never have received the uz, but orcs.

I would point out that it is possible to be impressed by someone while not becoming hoplessly imitative of them.

 

[Archer]

Uh, you know what elves, Gloranthan or otherwise, look like?

I know how they look in modern fantasy litterature today, and the image associated with the word, as well as the nordic mythology versions.

Nordic mythology alfar aren't very well defined. Back in RQ Vikings, the aldryami made a cover appearance as fairy treefolk appearing humanoid only from the front, while proper alfar were spirit beings, including deceased humans.

Well, the first is the "Skogsrå", which is not an elf (alf), and I do not know what that would translate to in english. The second would be "lyktgubbar", which there is an equivalent to in english, but at the moment I do not remember what that is. They are not elves though.
They are the deceased spirits of the dead, that haunts the forests, trying to lure people to their death.
The "Skogsrå" has more in common with nymphs than elves.

Alfer (elves), has in nordic mythology been both what we in fantasy today call "dwarves" and the more common "elf". Though in both cases they have great magical power, can control nature, and are mischievous in different ways. In viking mythology, the alfer (elves/dwarves) were servants to the ettin, the enemies of the viking gods, who forged dangerous weapons.

Irish mythology has them as the little folk.

I think you are referring to Poul Anderson's image of elves (in his Oberon stories and the "Broken Sword" novel), taken from English folk lore. Hmm, no pointy ears there (or in Tolkien), either.

Actually, no I am not. I am using modern fantasy litterature as reference for fantasy role-playing elves. Which have attributes from several sources, but who in general have the same appearance in common.

Modern fantasy literature influenced by D&D, Shannara etc: ok.

Glorantha already has a strong fan following; Heroquest sales are doing quit well.

Mark Mohrfield

Compared to D&D? compared to WFRP? I think you will find them rather small. But then, official numbers will not be available, so we wont know for sure, exactly how big the difference is.

Nothing has many players compared to D&D. About WFRP I'd guess the answer is yes. My point , though, is that by rpg standards Glorantha does have many fans.

Hard to judge, but not at the top, and not at the bottom is a good guess.

Fairly high up, at least if you look at the bios of developers. Definitely among the more active fan communities, with more than 13 years of daily e-mail discussions etc., and dedicated biennial UK conventions since 1992 (or 1990 if you count the German RQ conventions, annual, now dubbed "Tentacles"). The US conventions were not quite that successful.

There are also quite big fan groups in France, Finland, Japan, and Spain, with their own foreign language editions. The German Glorantha fan base is not that big (recruited early on from RQ2), but active (annual conventions...). German RuneQuest (3rd Edition) sold about 2500 copies (in addition to several hundred Games Workshop edition copies and a couple of hundred Avalon Hill copies sold in Germany).

Non-Gloranthan or semi-Gloranthan RQ was quite popular over here in Germany at a time, but with a production schedule that made Avalon Hill appear eager, the system failed to compete with the great three fantasy systems of the time (two German ones - DSA and Midgard - followed in popularity by German ed. AD&D - just before World of Darkness hit the market and Trading Card games ruined it).

The organizers of the Tentacles convention, known as "Chaos Society" in the anglophone countries, officially still is registered as "Deutsche RuneQuest Gesellschaft e.V.".


I wonder whether the German RQ2 diehards can somehow be regained into the fold, although I suppose if it isn't in Prax, little chance...

As I said, not the greatest, but not the smallest either. Taking account the very different versions of RQ and Glorantha, it is no wonder there are a lot of fans, who appreciate different versions and different ways things have appeared in the setting, and why there is such passion when it is discussed.

However, RQ has by all intents and purposes officially been dead for a long time (though the fans have continued to play there etc.). So it is perhaps no wonder it at the moment are not in the minds of the new generations of fantasy role-players.

Hopefully MRQ will change this, and we will also have many settings to choose from running MRQ, suiting each and every fans taste.
My unrealistic hope for RQ is that it manages to become the new "d20" for the comming years.

Sorry, for the strange quoting in this post, I somehow managed to get the many Quote tags mixed up..