Scholars are hilariously powerful

[kintire]

It´s not about be an "elitist" like you said, it´s about the environment and the ambient of the game. It´s legal reading the rulebook? yes, it´s right a la letre but not to the spirit of the game.

It IS about being elitist. As the "munchkin" remark betrays. As soon as someone starts going on about the "Spirit" of the game you can be sure they are trying to impose their own opinions on the game.

Want to "destroy a few hundred enemies in a huge fireball" "melt people with blasts of energy" or "summon Dragons"? Of course you can, but that´s not Conan is about

Oh, isn't it? Perhaps you should have mentioned that to Howard, when he wrote Black Colossus:

A terrific explosion rocked the desert, which seemed to split apart along the strewn line with an awful burst of white flame.

In that instant the whole foremost line of the knights was seen enveloped in that flame, horses and steel-clad riders withering in the glare like insects in an open blaze. The next instant the rear ranks were piling up on their charred bodies. Unable to check their headlong velocity, rank after rank crashed into the ruins. With appalling suddenness the charge had turned into a shambles where armored figures died amid screaming, mangled horses.

Or Red Nails

For in the lean hand of Tolkemec now waved a curious jade-hued wand, on the end of which glowed a knob of crimson shaped like a pomegranate. She sprang aside as he thrust it out like a spear, and a beam of crimson fire lanced from the pomegranate. It missed Tascela, but the woman holding Valeria's ankles was in the way. It smote between her shoulders. There was a sharp crackling sound and the ray of fire flashed from her bosom and struck the black altar, with a snapping of blue sparks. The woman toppled sidewise, shriveling and withering like a mummy even as she fell.

And their magicians made a terrible magic to guard the city; for by their necromantic arts they re-created the dragons which had once dwelt in this lost land, and whose monstrous bones they found in the forest. Those bones they clothed in flesh and life, and the living beasts walked the earth as they walked it when time was young.

Additionally: none of the Howard´s sorcerers foes of Conan use never a combination like that, from Tsotha Lanti to Thugra Khotan. Why? Were they stupid?

Are you really suggesting that we can't do ANYTHING unless it appears in the books?

Btw: That "Great ape sorcerer all-in-1" gets proficiency with Greatsword or with armour for any reason? think about it

From his level of Soldier he gets both.

 

[Phobos]

I´m glad to see that you don´t have true arguments . I´m still waiting for some serious answer.

Comparing the giant ape sorcerer with two greatswords of level 6 with Tolkemec and Thugra Khotan, wich uses those spells ONCE in all the story is just funny, for not mention absurd.

Ask Mr Sprange and Mr Darlage about their intentions when they create the rules, sure that they say they want to made a " overkiller close combat sorcerer", sure...

By the way: If it´s ok for you in your game, c´mon. I´ll only saying that in my group I´ll not let that "combo" ( I do not know how did you say that in english, sorry)

 

[rabindranath72]

I suppose the point of the OP is that some things are allowed by the rules. The problem then becomes: should the rules even allow them if they must conform to the "spirit" of Conan?
If the rules allow things contrary to the spirit, then the rules are not doing their job properly.

 

[kintire]

I´m glad to see that you don´t have true arguments . I´m still waiting for some serious answer

Ah, yes The "I have nothing to say, but I'm not prepared to admit that" trash talk.

So; we have established that your grasp of the "Spirit" of Conan is so weak that you dismiss as "not what Conan is about" three incidents which Howard put in Conan stories. We've established that Conan has high powered and flashy magic... including shapeshifting of course. The best you can come up with is:

Comparing the giant ape sorcerer with two greatswords of level 6 with Tolkemec and Thugra Khotan, wich uses those spells ONCE in all the story is just funny, for not mention absurd.

Which is:

a) Not an argument, its a bare assertion;
b) Irrelevant since they are NPC antagonists with limited screen time: I bet TK used that spell many times over his career;
c) False: Tolkemec uses that spell over and over and over again;

If you want an approximation to a PC sorcerer, try Khemsa, who maurauds through most of the story casting spell after spell.

Ask Mr Sprange and Mr Darlage about their intentions when they create the rules, sure that they say they want to made a " overkiller close combat sorcerer", sure...

I don't have to. Their intentions were "make a game people can have fun with". With or without your permission!

I´ll only saying that in my group I´ll not let that "combo"

What you are saying is that it violates the "spirit of Conan" and people who do it are rulescratching Munchkins. If you now wish to backpedal to actually only saying that you wouldn't allow it in your group, then thats fine.

 

[reoiv]

Additionally: none of the Howard´s sorcerers foes of Conan use never a combination like that, from Tsotha Lanti to Thugra Khotan. Why? Were they stupid?

I don't remember those guys using nature, frost or oriental magics. They had even worse stuff that would kill the monkey guy in a heartbeat.....so they probably didn't think it would have been worth their time.

Though I do remember in one of the stories a guy shifting into a giant eagle and flying ahead.

 

[reoiv]

It IS about being elitist. As the "munchkin" remark betrays. As soon as someone starts going on about the "Spirit" of the game you can be sure they are trying to impose their own opinions on the game.

Oh, isn't it? Perhaps you should have mentioned that to Howard, when he wrote Black Colossus:

Or Red Nails

Are you really suggesting that we can't do ANYTHING unless it appears in the books?

From his level of Soldier he gets both.

This is one of the best Conan posts I've seen in a long time thank you.

 

[Phobos]

I suppose the point of the OP is that some things are allowed by the rules. The problem then becomes: should the rules even allow them if they must conform to the "spirit" of Conan?
If the rules allow things contrary to the spirit, then the rules are not doing their job properly.

Just what I´m saying. Nothing more to add to the discussion.

 

[reoiv]

Give the Scholar fencing and he quickly can turn the crit into a normal hit

 

[Spectator]

I think its totally laughable when the all the fighter class PCs munchkin out their character so they are able to impose a massive damage hit by accidentally farting on some-one and then here comes this guy with a feasible rules-allowable combo and then all the fighter types say HEY MAN NO WAY.
Just an observation, very funny though.

 

[Csmallo]

I think its totally laughable when the all the fighter class PCs munchkin out their character so they are able to impose a massive damage hit by accidentally farting on some-one and then here comes this guy with a feasible rules-allowable combo and then all the fighter types say HEY MAN NO WAY.
Just an observation, very funny though.

I doubt you will find very many munchkin types here. Try over at on the Pathfinder Forums.

 

[reoiv]

What I am doing here is explaning to reoiv that DR 15 in not great when competing with a professional Fighter, or for that matter, one who uses finesse, not one standing there waiting for a Sorcerer to kill him Spectator, also, Sorcerer cannot cast any spells in animal form, so defensive blasts are not allowed, so no last moment reaction to near death threats.

See that's the beauty of it.

Become beast can be dismissed. And defensive blast is Verbal only so if things got really rough you can just end the ape spell and blast the ever loving snot out of people up close to you.

And the best thing is I didn't even get to the really nasty transformation....

A huge dragon (large animal) has a base DR of 9. Custom made plate and helm (see barding rules in Tito's Trading Post) plus the Fell of Frost pushes the DR to 23 which is quite a bit to overcome, especially against a foe with 25 constitution and 35 strength.

Meanwhile it can swallow whole anything smaller than huge size it bites and the bite attack is +22 to hit. The bite, btw does 3d6+12 8AP and since he already had power attack and reckless attack he can easily push it to something absurd like 3d6+22 or more easily. Plus once swallowed you can only use light weapons to cut your way out vs DR4 with 25 hp. All the while people inside the dragon are taking 2d8+6 bludgeon damage and 1d4 acid damage each round.

Mind you the scholar would have to be level 9 to pull this off but that isn't that big of a deal and at that point the armored dragon form would last 9 hours so the down time between casts could easily be during a lull.

This doesn't get into the idea dragon specific weapons, the poison use feat (milking the most poisonous form you can find for poison and then coating your armor and weapons in it) and many other nasty things along the way.

The dual wielding ape is just the tip of the iceberg in how nasty scholars can be.

 

[Csmallo]

At least be honest and call what you are doing what it is, war gaming. You aren't playing a role, you are cherry picking abilities so you can be leet.

 

[Jeffreywns]

Style
Transforming into a Giant Eagle, flying to Morder and dropping the One Ring down mount doom.
If that was style would anyone know who Tolkien was?
D&D is a style of gaming. You can play Conan, Lord of the Ring, Cthulhu, etc, in the style of the genre OR D&D. Not both.
You can enjoy them in both. However in my experience most Pathfinder/D&D players have a very hard time adjusting to Conan out of frustration with no handy healing/buffing spells and magic gizmos.
My BIASED opinion is based on tiring of D&D in the eighties. It wasnt until the Conan RPG come out that a "Fantasy" RPG caught my attention. Allot (if not most) activity in this forum is of like minded FANS, who are aware of the ability to make legal (rule wise) builds and combos.
As to defending myself - I cant.
Style is subjective. Maybe Howard and Tolkien had no style.

 

[Spectator]

Seriously, why shouldn't the Rohirrim and the Gondorians bring Gandalf up for trial for magical malptactice!
Think of the thousands of human dead caused by him setting those ringbearers to mordor via foot.

 

[Jeffreywns]

Not to mention the Ring was stolen by the "Good" guys. I guess in context my stance does seem silly since it's a game we're talking about that exists through players imagination.

 

[kintire]

A huge dragon (large animal) has a base DR of 9. Custom made plate and helm (see barding rules in Tito's Trading Post) plus the Fell of Frost pushes the DR to 23 which is quite a bit to overcome, especially against a foe with 25 constitution and 35 strength.

Barding? You are never going to get plate barding big enough to protect a Dragon. And if you did, how the hell would you carry it when you WEREN'T a dragon?

Anyway, why shapeshift? why not just call up a Dragon?

Or better yet, use the resources needed to pull this off to buy a fief and levy an army. Much more effective!

 

[reoiv]

Barding? You are never going to get plate barding big enough to protect a Dragon. And if you did, how the hell would you carry it when you WEREN'T a dragon?

That is why you use your extra points from being a scholar in craft (armor smith) and craft (weapons smith)

The small amount of time you aren't in dragon form you can have your slaves etc carry it. That or just carry it with a horse and wagon.

Anyway, why shapeshift? why not just call up a Dragon?

Cause shape shifting is easier it only costs 5 PP and lasts 1 hour per scholar level.

Using greater summon costs 100xp points and 8pp to use an you only get the dragon to hang out for one MINUTE per scholar level.

Or better yet, use the resources needed to pull this off to buy a fief and levy an army. Much more effective!

Why not do both?

Leadership with a scholar makes them even more sick. Make it so that you only recruit soldier scholars that specialize in frost magic so they back you up with shape shifting dragons, monkeys with great swords and your entire group of lackeys can all shift to giant birds or bats and fly away when needed. Oh and all the guys you recruit take leadership as a feat as well so they recruit the same kind of folks. This quickly becomes grossly exponential and you end up with loads of characters all with cohorts and followers all following that one PC.

Leadership, like the scholar class, is something we don't allow in our games either because it just causes way too many balance issues.

 

[kintire]

Well, if you are given limitless financial resources you can do this. But you'd still be better off hiring an army for the same money.

 

[Phobos]

And why not a sorcerer turned in man ape with TONS of DR and 2 akbitanan greatswords, mounted on back of a sorcerer turned in dragon w/ plate armour and helm? That´s could be sweet!

 

[Majestic7]

Transformation effects have always been the troublespot of D&D 3.X. If you just go through enough books, you can always find something unbalanced and then do silly things.

In our game, shapeshift simply slaps a template on the character. For example, transformation to a bird gives fly speed, a little dexterity and racial bonus to spot for the duration. You just slaps that on the character statistics and he is good to go. Adjust this for size modification. Still keeps the spell useful, leaves out a lot of micromanagement and makes it less overpowered. In addition, using the spell requires that the sorcerer has captured and ritually slain the animal he wished to transform into. Thus in order to transform into a giant eagle he would need to capture and kill one first. That would be an adventure in itself.

Regarding sorcery otherwise...meh, a big axe or an arbalest bolt to the eye will kill even the mightiest wizard. I even removed the spell failure from armor, it is a direct relic of D&D and has no place in Conan. Howard says nowhere that armor would somehow hinder magic. His sorcerers just choose not to use any because they are so arrogant or awesome. Scholar doesn't get any armor proficiencies anyway.